How the Gospel Helps Us Pursue Ethnic Diversity

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Vanessa Hawkins
I’m Vanessa Hopkins. I’m the director of women’s ministry at First Presbyterian Church in Augusta, and I also serve as the diversity advisor for PCA women’s ministry and it is my great privilege to serve as your moderator today for our discussion. I want to introduce you to our panel we have with us not necessarily in this order, why don’t I introduce you in order? Dennae Pierre Dennae is the leader of the surge network movement of local churches in the Phoenix Arizona area. She serves on the North America leadership team for Redeemer city to city and she is the founder of foster care initiatives and ministers alongside her husband vermin, who is lead pastor at Roosevelt Community Church, welcome today. We also have with us here Courtney, Dr. The author of this awesome Bible study that we’re all gathered, and learning from right now in the book of James. She is a itinerant Bible teacher conference speaker retreats maker and she’s the coordinator of women’s initiatives for the gospel coalition. Welcome Courtney doctor. am so pleased to have joining us Suzanne Bates Suzanne is the Associate Dean of Students and assistant professor of counseling at covenant Seminary in St. Louis. I had the privilege of benefiting from Suzanne’s work in a cohort group that still blesses my wife to this day. She also serves as staff counselor at New City Fellowship Church in St. Louis welcome Suzanne Bates. And last certainly not least, my newest friend, Ruth Chou, Simons best selling author, entrepreneur and speaker. Ruth is an very talented artists may I add, Ruth is the author of the holding and becoming the art of everyday worship and Grace lace, which won a 2018 Christian Book Award. Please help me welcome Ruth child assignments. So just with the increased awareness of violence against Asian American and Pacific Islanders, particularly women, currently getting widespread attention in the news out cries from African Americans concerning voter suppression, and unsafe policing continues to feel our cultural moment as well. Children remain separated from their parents at the Mexican border. First Nation peoples have ongoing legal battles for rights to land they once owned opportunity for disunity abound, disagreements are many. And it’s just so easy to be swept along by the loudest outcry. Scripture clearly shows that all of humanity as being made in the image of God. And it opposed loving God and neighbor, as the greatest commandment gives us a glimpse of the complexion of heaven that we are to live into and Revelation seven with every tribe, tongue and nation, united and worship to the one true King. Yet knowing all of that, we think of unity and diversity as being just a response to racial tension sometimes in the broader culture and not as the foundational truth or the gospel imperative that is given in Scripture into Christ’s church. So today, we are hoping to have a gospel centered discussion at we’re wanting to look at a few things, three things in particular, we’re wanting to look at the motivation for and the necessity of having these types of discussions. We’re wanting to talk about some of the barriers to gospel unity. And we’re hoping that you leave with some practical ways to move forward and encouragement for pursuing gospel unity, and diversity. So that’s the stage. That’s, that’s where we’re going. And let’s jump right in to our questions. So let me ask what must our necessary motivation for unity and diversity be in the church? Where and Scripture Have you seen a precedence for such a conversation about unity among different ethnic groups? Suzanne, yeah. Would you start us off?

Suzanne Bates
Amen. It’s a pleasure to be here. It’s wonderful to see all of you here. And that would mean that you obviously have an interest in these issues. Maybe you’re already practicing them in your church. Maybe you’re thinking about that or trying to figure out how to go about doing that. Your pastors may or may not be preaching that this is a biblical mandate, and that the scriptures directly point us into this aspect of looking at unity and diversity and celebrating the diversity even as we are being made one in our walk together as believers. So there is Four scriptures that just come to mind, and I’ll just name them I guess I won’t necessarily read them, I’m sure they’ll come up in different ways and, and you can look them up. But you know, the one from Ephesians four, that is talking about living the life worthy of the calling, and bearing one another’s issues being humble, maybe I’ll just read it because otherwise I’m gonna botch it.

Suzanne Bates
As a prisoner for the Lord, then I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received to be completely humble and gentle, be patient bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to be one hope, when you were called, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God, one father of all, who is overall and through all and in all, be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other justice Christ, God forgave you. So and then you know, the first from First Corinthians 12. And, of course, Galatians three, I’ll read that one to you to one Corinthians 12 is a little bit longer, but let me be Galatians three. So in Christ Jesus, you are all children of God through faith. For all of you who were baptized into Christ, have clothe yourselves with Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is though male, and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. And then of course, you all know the one from Micah six, eight, he has shown you, oh, man, what is good, and what does the Lord require of you, but to do justly, to act justly love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God, I think these are wonderful, beautiful, simple truths that Speak to our hearts about where the Lord is going. You know, the whole Bible is a narrative about where God is going with his people. And he did not put these things away in terms of looking at our diversity and the uniqueness of who we are. And we see that in Revelation, when every tribe and tongue is going to be worshipping Him, we’re not going to all look the same. We’re going to all be different, and still celebrating the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, welcoming each other and entering into the relationship with him at a deep level to serve Him, and to honor Him and to praise Him and to worship Him. So this is something that we put away for a lot of different reasons. Because we love to look at each other and say, You’re different from me, I don’t understand you, or maybe I don’t want to understand you. Or maybe you’re less than me, and not as good as me. But this is not what the Scriptures teach, you will not find this in the Word of God. So I do want to encourage you to go back and look at some of those verses again, and meditate on those things. The Lord speaks loudly about this in the scriptures, and how we need to be as His people,

Vanessa Hawkins
that was very much worth reading. Thank you so much, Suzanne, such a unifying language, there’s no ambiguity about what was required and what was being called for there. That’s oneness that we hear all over those pages. And so thank you for that. Suzanne. So let’s talk about how that looks on the ground and what some of our distinctives are in light of some of those commands. How might the way Christians have this discussion be set apart from the way the rest of our nation is talking about it? It’s so contentious everywhere that we look, how are we to be distinctly different in our conversation? And how in particular, is your community seeking to be set apart in this way?

Dennae Pierre
Yeah, you know, one of the things that we’ve talked a lot about with our church family, which is a very diverse church family, who have had our fair share of challenges around this even going back five years ago, six years ago, because we had so much ethnic diversity, the challenges instantly surfaced that were happening, really, in the last year and a half the arguments happening at a national level we were having on Facebook initially, which is not where you want to be having these discussions with your church family. And one of the passages that was just really convicting throughout this whole season, and we continue to pray about is from James chapter three, who is wise and understanding among you let them show it by their good life, work and meekness and wisdom. And then it goes on to say that bitter jealousy fraction and division is wisdom from below, and it’s unspiritual and demonic. And I think one of the things that we just keep reminding ourselves and our community and the pastors and leaders that we work with, is that this is not some minor disagreement. But the posture we take towards our brothers and sisters, the postures we take towards our neighbors, the posture we take towards our political opposites, is either unspiritual and demonic and participating with Satan, or we’re representing Christ in His kingdom. And we’re first and foremost a missionary people who are called to represent God’s character everywhere that we go. And so as Christians, it does matter that we engage on cultural issues that we’re able to speak and demonstrate God’s love to the world around us. And so I think there’s kind of two things that we consistently talk about. One is just the importance of learning to listen to our neighbors, and those we work with, and those were our kids are in school with and listen for the creational truth there is there is always embedded even in something you disagree with even something that’s not explicitly Christian creational truth. And so how do we see that so we can have dialogue with people and really listen to understand and learn, hear people’s stories, understand the narratives that that they’re speaking out of, and then to, we want to be a distinct witness right there, every ideology, and every solution to a world problem that isn’t centered in Christ is going to have some kind of reduction, to truth. And that’s where idolatry can be built from. And so we want to both be able to affirm and listen and meet people where they’re at, understand what’s coming from a place of fear and anxiety, and then move toward people in love and seek out truth so that we can be advocates of justice and reconciliation, and we can be a sowing seeds of peace, this passage, and James goes on to talk about why, you know, sowing he who sows seeds of peace, is sowing seeds of righteousness, and that this is the posture in which we can go about advocating for justice and working toward reconciliation within the body of Christ.

Vanessa Hawkins
That is so incredibly helpful. Thank you today. That is awesome.

Ruth Chou Simons
Can I jump in real quick, just for the conversation? You know, I think as believers, we know where true peace truly comes from. And so I’m hearing in both of our conversations here so far that we can be set apart because we are not putting our hope on peace on earth only. Right? Like our goal is to transfer the source of peace, so that all would know eternal peace. And so when I think about how we can lead out differently, it’s not that we’re just saying, hey, you know what, my eternal home is over here. So I don’t need to worry about this. Of course, we want to bring that piece here. But we can be led differently, because our ultimate goal is not just to fix it here, but to actually transfer hope to all that they might experience and be able to praise together, Jesus Christ together. And so I just think, as we’re saying, I heard that in what you were saying as well, just that we were different, because we actually know where we’re going, what God’s doing, what the end goal is, the end goal is not for perfection here because we already know that’s not possible. The end goal is that we might surrender and bow before King Jesus. And that’s all reconciliation is to that end.

Vanessa Hawkins
Amen. Amen. That is a beautiful picture that we’re pressing into that worship of every tribe, Tongan nation, and we are to live into that now. So let’s talk a little bit about barriers, then, to this discussion, how has the conversation in particular on unity and diversity changed in the past year? I mean, our cultural moment has been soul filled with opportunity for dissension in the conversation on racial and ethnic diversity. So how do you think that this social unrest that we’ve experienced in the past year has affected the conversation on unity and diversity in our culture and in the church? I’d love to hear from from whomever Yeah. Suzanne.

Suzanne Bates
All right, there’s so many barriers you are this is one of the things that the Lord did in my life many years ago is he he put a nice such a deep desire for there to be reconciliation with men and particularly across ethnic and socio socio logical, thank you, I got to get the word out. situations and things of that nature. And part of that is because I was bullied, and I was bullied in the black community, badly actually, by my own kind. And then I was rejected in the white community and I just thought forever trying to figure out where do I fit in? Culturally do I actually have a place I never wanted to be white, but I did struggle with being black because I felt like that was not gonna ever be acceptable. And I would not be able to have a voice in that or be special in that or be seen in that. And as I have looked at these issues over the years of my life, I would say that there is one thing that is undergirding much of the barriers to why we have such a hard time with this truth that the Lord puts before us. And it is fear. It is fear, we fear people that are different from us, we fear, if we like those people, how will we be treated? How will other people respond if we support them, and if we’re an advocate for them. And so what we do is we compromise as Democritus B talks about when he talks about the color of compromise, and we are quick to actually say, I’m just going to be silent, I’m not going to act as if this is a problem. So part of it is a lack of awareness, a lack of a caring, that I think is oftentimes driven by a fear factor. And, and when we are able, you know, the word tells us that perfect love casts out of fear. And God’s love is the only love that is perfect as we embrace this love that He has for us, seeing us uniquely as individuals just the way we are. As we embrace that aspect of our being, then we are put in a position we are being made ready, if you will, to be able to embrace that with another person in their being. And so I see that as a huge barrier. I other things that have come up over the last year that we’ve seen a lot of anger, a lot of frustration. A lot of times people struggled to with the same questions that I had, where do I fit in, at covenant and other spaces I have had people say to me, Well, I’m ashamed of being white now that I’m finding more about the plight of African Americans or Asian Americans in the world, Native Americans. And you know, don’t change being who you are, be who you are. And so I get the opportunity to speak that into their lives. But that becomes another barrier. Because once they’re thinking I have to be something different from who I am, then they’re actually still not embracing who I am. And I want them to be able to see me for who I am, and not try to be me, in order to understand my experience. So we are afraid of hearing other’s experiences. And even if we were to stop and ask ourselves a question, what is the barrier, what gets in the way of me believing and hearing another’s experience, we can find out what is really there. So this is something that I think we have to take a look at very deeply and, and talk to the Lord about and say you didn’t, you know, make me perfect in your love. So that I am able to not be afraid of those especially who are different from me.

Vanessa Hawkins
That is so helpful. And so helpful. I just can’t help but think that sometimes also that that fear that you’re talking about that resonates deeply with me what you’re saying. But that fear sometimes comes from a wise assessment of I’m counting the cost, because this conversation is going to cost me something, it’s going to cost me something, it may cost me some bad beliefs, or it may cause me some discomfort. It may cost it may cause me friends if I change how I see. And so just assessing the cost that can be scary can be a scary place. Ruth chime on and I say you ready to tall

Ruth Chou Simons
I was just gonna say it can cost us time too. We want so fast, we want to be able to have a conversation so good and fix everything in one conversation but relationship around the kitchen table and really pursuing somebody you may not fully understand like that takes time, right? We’re just in such a hustle culture. And we want everything microwave fast. That this is a conversation that takes time and investment of and sacrifice of what’s most costly to you. Maybe your energy, your time, your patience, all of us are exhausted with the Internet. And but that’s why we don’t need to fix everything on the internet. Let’s start with one person. Let’s start with one relationship. Let’s do it locally. Let’s do it within our communities, and stop feeling like we have to immediately change everything across the world. Just start right where were you? Are you No.

Vanessa Hawkins
Okay, you guys are making it really hard to move this conversation forward. Because we could just, we could just stay in any one of these places. So I’m gonna move us forward. Let me ask this. Much attention has been given to the multicultural response to widespread racial tensions in our nation unlike anything I’ve ever seen. We see a multicultural response, for instance, to aggressions towards the African Emir. community that that has been encouraging in some ways. Why don’t you think the response from majority culture? I’m going to ask Courtney, this one? Why do you think the response from majority culture has been so heightened in the face of the racial uprisings in the late spring of 2020? And then I want to ask you in two part a two part question. Of course, I would I would do that to you would, how would you encourage our other majority culture women in the room who are seeking to grow in their own awareness?

Courtney Doctor
Well, it’s a great question. It’s been, it’s been a hard year, it’s been a long year. And I would say that for majority culture, if we might have been able to say that we sort of fell along a spectrum, some parts of that spectrum more populated than others, for sure. This this year, or even the past several years have caused more polarization. There’s, there’s more division in majority culture, but there’s good news and that there’s really, really good news in that, because in the side, that is saying, I’m, I’m waking up, I’m becoming more aware, I’m learning my blind spots are having lights shone on them. It’s, my compassion has increased, my awareness has increased, my activism has increased my, you know, those things. So. So on the positive side of polarization, there’s a lot of really good things happening. And I think the gospel is coming to bear in believers that the gospel is shining the light that you were reading Ephesians four, and and the ability to see our unity is, is increasing. On the negative side, I think that the cultural blindness is more evident. And that’s actually not a bad thing. That that at least it’s more obvious, at least it’s less tolerated. It’s more observable. So I think that there is a polarization happening in majority culture. And it’s not an entirely bad thing. So I’m asking the Lord to do a work in that. And to increase all of our awareness you, you asked what I would do to encourage my majority culture, friends that are here and that are online. And I would say, first of all, humble yourself. Learn the the willingness to just learn to listen, to believe, somebody whose life experience is different than yours. To be you we’re talking about the cost, the ability to say, I’m willing to lose my old narrative, I’m willing to lose a narrative that I’ve believed for far too long as I learn and as I believe my brothers and sisters, that their experience is different than mine. And, and so humble yourself, learn. And ultimately, it’s what Ruth was talking about. It’s, it’s moving towards not just love of each other, but love of Christ. We can’t love Christ and love his word and ignore the gospel imperative to love each other. So it’s a way of loving each other, loving each other is not actually the end game. The end game is love of Christ and obedience to Him. And these are imperatives that he gives us.

Dennae Pierre
I would also say in learning, like, learn locally, so I think it’s become really challenging how many of us are now beginning to listen to like these national voices and bloggers, when we have local pastors, local leaders, friends from different backgrounds, Sister churches that are made up of different people groups in our church, and to be able to seek out listening at a local level is really, really important. Because we don’t just need the most articulate kind of argument about which side to pick, we need to really engage in what it means to be reconciled people. When we talk about, you know, a majority culture waking up nationally, it’s not necessarily happening at the same rate in the church. And part of that is we’re more segregated, at least if you’re comparing it to our cities, right? Like I live in a big city. And it’s very awkward to walk into it. It’s very rare that you walk into any place a grocery store, a coffee shop, a library, a school that’s not incredibly multi ethnic, but not true in our churches right there. They’re very homogeneous. And those of you who are living in different parts of the country that might be different, different for you, but our our nation is becoming more global as a whole, but our churches aren’t and so we just have to I think we need a season of humility, of listening to your point of learning, but really seek out, you know, local voices that are that are being honest about our long 400 500 year history, how that history has shown up in our own region of the country. And what does it mean then to enter a process of just prayer and listening and lament and learning, especially when we’re new when we’re new to the topic.

Vanessa Hawkins
And it’s so good, it’s so powerful to understand our own local context. And and to allow that to give us entrance into the broader conversation. So powerful. Thank you for that. Wanting to also thank for one of the huge barriers, that’s kind of a that is complicated conversations, I would say, with regard to race and culture lately has been called the pandemic. It has exposed some fissures and some divides. And I’d love to talk about that from, in particular, from the perspective of the Asian community, as well as the African American community. And so let me ask you, Ruth COVID-19 pandemic, is it’s polarized us in a lot of ways, aggressions towards Asian Americans increased during the pandemic, and or we were at least made more aware of those aggressions and a lot of ways. For some, this may seem like a new development in the racial conversation, and I want to ask you, do you think this is novel? Is this new? And how might the church come alongside Asian Americans in the conversation toward racial unity? Can you talk to me a little bit about that?

Ruth Chou Simons
Yeah. First of all, I just would say, you know, it is not a monolithic conversation, and I cannot stand here, sit here on this stage and speak for the entirety of the Asian American community, I can certainly share my own experience. But I love what Denise said about really seeking to learn locally, I think we are now at a point where we pick up our cell phones and immediately feel like we have to adopt a certain language that we see coming through our feeds. And that’s certainly informative sometimes. But if we haven’t done the work to actually reach out and relate to somebody or seek a relationship, like on the ground, and actually tangibly, you know, have tea together, have coffee together, I think we’re really not actually doing the work of learning that DNA was describing here. And so when I think about the what Asian American community is experiencing right now, it’s not that this is new, it’s not that this is suddenly an issue, or it’s an issue that only happened, starting in the pandemic, I think they’re this, what we’re seeing right now, is a lot of hurt. And as a lot of reaction to perhaps a conversation that should have started a long time ago, possibly needing to address some of the the bigotry and the sadness, and the, and the perpetual for nearness, this some of those things needed to be addressed a long time ago, and it’s just now surfacing. And so let’s not be, let’s not think that everything is a political issue. But let’s be caring enough to say, what is your family history? What have you experienced? How might, you know whether, you know, I live in a smaller rural area in Colorado, and nobody’s yelled anything at me, I have not experienced that. I have experienced some of the things that my sisters have experienced in bigger cities. But I certainly have had a lifetime of things that I can share of ways in which I have maybe satin in grieved some of the, the bigotry towards me. And nobody’s ever asked, I’ve never talked about it. And so I sit here and I think, okay, is this a time where the church can say, let’s not in fear, we just talked about fear, right? Maybe sometimes in the the desire to really preach the gospel, we maybe forget to text or reach out to an Asian American person in our congregation and say, rather than assume the narrative, like how are you doing, and it’s a complex issue, and maybe your heart is grieved in a lot of ways. Maybe nobody’s ever, like asked you your experience. And so that’s a really good start. I think, rather than assuming that you understand the experience or that you don’t understand as parents maybe just ask, maybe just speak in a by coming alongside and saying, I want to learn and know that the Asian American person in your congregation or in your community may be totally overwhelmed at the conversation that’s happening right now. And he or she may have never really had an opportunity and onramp to like actually talk about this with anyone. And some of some of them are like I’ve been feeling alone for a really long time. And so the conversation is really wide and broad. But I do think that it is a good time to invite that conversation and be open to say, let’s let’s dial it back a little bit from what even is the the national conversation and say let’s get this personal let’s let’s hear personally, what you have experienced and How, as believers we can say, okay, allegiance to Christ causes me to want to bear this burden that you’re experiencing, and that growing and compassion will cause me to want to engage on the broader conversation as well.

Vanessa Hawkins
Ruth, that is so helpful, because I think sometimes and what I hear often is people want to engage, and they don’t know how to, like, how do I even start that conversation. And so it’s so helpful for you to give us some practical wisdom in that. But I also want to pivot to DNA. And I want to talk about how African Americans have been disproportionately affected by COVID-19. What in particular, have you seen this dynamic? How have you seen it challenge, unity, and digital in our churches and communities?

Dennae Pierre
Yeah, so I work with a multi ethnic networks of pastors. And it really the first three months or six months of the pandemic, it was really striking to see our African American and Latino pastors who, in the first six weeks were burying 1520 people in their congregation, out of a church of 200. And then our white suburban mega churches of 2000. Were fighting over reopening and doing worship. And I think just the, to see, because of socio, where people were ministering, what part of the city and a socio economic gap and the gap to access to health care and, and just who was impacted first, because they had more frontline grocery store, you know, medical workers, all these different things in their church. It was just really heartbreaking. And I think, as we’ve seen a year ago, one and this really ridiculous, like, if our kids were having these kinds of arguments, they’d all be in timeout for a long time. Right? Right. And it’s like, just this ridiculous foolishness of like, of like, and it’s so complex, right? It’s like over a mask, and to see people leave churches and, and just the anger and the all the heat madness overwrites. And, again, even even if you didn’t want to wear a mask, it’s just like, we’re talking about a mask and, and just there’s so much loss of life and so much pain and suffering in our low income communities. Schools, schools that aren’t our own local church work with, right like the schools and the downtown core, mostly Latino African American, didn’t reopen our middle class, wealthy schools in the suburbs opened up right away. And so you’re talking about a year of our kids in virtual school with parents who are taking the bus two hours for their job at Walmart, like it was nuts, right. And yet, we have just this, I think, the Lord this year, put on full display the consequence of how we are living in the foolishness that keeps coming out of our mouth and our behaviors. And you can look at the last year and say it is so complex, if we think we can reduce it to one political party has the right answers or one, like I mean, on every level, the pressure, just exposed how complex the injustice, this the suffering inequality is. And so I would say is, you know, I think in the and then after that, we had may 2020, and George Floyd and all these racial justice protests and all this kind of, you know, this, this lash lash, flashback, flashback lash back from brothers and sisters. And so I think we have I think, as sisters, in Christ and women, we have so much to lament, and we just need a season of really leading the way and like wailing over the sin of God’s people, and asking the Spirit to bring us to repentance and bring unity. Because all I can do is look at the past year and see the gap, the difference, and the fighting and say, there’s gotta be like, God has gotta be calling us to something different.

Vanessa Hawkins
I love that you’re you’re already kind of pivoting into where I’m wanting to go. And that is ways forward, especially as our time is just slowly ticking away here quickly ticking away. I know that your church has had some efforts towards unity and diversity. Talk to us about some practical things that you guys have done as a way forward.

Dennae Pierre
Yeah, so meals, where we’re really having a disc, you know, discussions with people intentionally asking people over to have conversations around race for those who are part of churches that are more homogeneous, doing book studies, and just taking time to read and pray through the color compromise. Um, there’s so many great books that have been published, beautiful community, on and on, there’s books in the in the bookstore, going to go to a different church, go to an African American church, in your city, and just worship for six weeks in a row, tell your pastor, you’re going on a missionary journey, and you’ll be back in six weeks and just go and pray and meet people even have to drive an hour just like there’s just ways that you can begin to be intentional. So I would really encourage that as something that we press into.

Vanessa Hawkins
So helpful. Suzanne, can I get you to talk to us a little bit about just some of the trauma we’ve experienced And what we’ve seen on TV and some of what we’ve experienced vicariously, what are some ways forward? What are some practical ways for us to care for ourselves, as we think about our own mental health, and all of this?

Suzanne Bates
Yeah, we have to create spaces, we have to create spaces for the conversations. We have to create spaces for people in our congregations and our communities, to talk about the pain to talk about the grievous things to talk about their anger, to be able to interact with it and know that they’re not alone. And when we are able to do that, then we have a deeper sense of, you know, I’m not out here by myself experiencing all these emotions when George Floyd was murdered. And I watched the accounts of that on television, and I’m a therapist, myself, and I sat there, in total disbelief and anger, I was numb and numbed into silence. And it was actually a colleague of mine, who’s white American. And she sent a chat out to a group of us and said, Hey, is anybody going to talk about this, we haven’t said anything about it. And it was as if I was able to all of a sudden speak, I was so numb that it took my sister making a comment to allow me to have the space to bring it and I live alone. So when you also live alone, and it was COVID, everybody’s in their homes, the tragedy of experiencing the trauma of that is real. And that’s just one account, George Floyd, there are many, many others, some of which you may have had in your own life experience. And so what happens is we get triggered by the events that we’re seeing, you’re looking at it on the screen, you’re looking at it on your phone, it’s just coming at you at all different directions, you say I want to just turn off the news and put that away, I don’t want to think about it. But actually, because we are believers, and we love Jesus, and we say we love Jesus, and we want to love each other. It’s like, we cannot act like it’s not there. But then we’re triggered. And so we have anxiety and depression coming over as we have deep grief and sadness. If we are not creating the spaces for the language of these things that are meant to happen, then we actually exacerbate the problem. And people will hold things in and try to control it themselves. But that’s not actually the place of healing. You know, Denae and Ruth, they were talking about the being local in the way that you’re connecting. This is a wonderful way it might be a neighbor down the street that is African American, or, or Asian, or Native American, and you know what go to them, and give the space for them to enter in if they choose to. It’s a complex matter. It’s a delicate matter, even those that are polarized in the dominant culture. One of the things that I had to become more awakened to myself was that, you know, I had colleagues and friends of the dominant culture who were battling with their family members, because they stood on the side of the injustices of things that were going on and acknowledging systemic racism and oppression and their family members were not. And this becomes huge when you’re when you’re standing in a position when you’re like, my family and I, we can’t even be on the same page. Where do you go to Excel to deal with this to work through the issues. So we need community desperately we need to create spaces and our churches, and our schools and our neighborhoods in any way that we can to have this conversation and allow people to just say, what is not fix it, not correct it, not tell them, you know, you shouldn’t feel that way, when it really wasn’t that bad, which is what people oftentimes do, or we try to dismiss it, not any of that, but just to listen, in humility, with grace, to listen, and to said, just want to hear your experience.

Vanessa Hawkins
And it’s just so powerful to create that kind of space. It’s how we love each other well by listening and entering into each other’s stories. And so that is a powerful way to love. Ruth, can I, as we wrap this up, as we began thinking about wrapping this up, can I get each of you ladies to share a resource that you would recommend for our women that are gathered here today? And I want to start with you, Ruth, if I might are sure,

Ruth Chou Simons
and I was just going to just also say that I’m a big fan of us doing more work behind the scenes than we do on social media. Like to do that work behind the scenes to have those conversations. I’m a huge fan of the kitchen table. I’m a mama to six boys. I know it’s crazy. I have six boys who live at my house and eat from our kitchen and the conversations we have at the kitchen table. Sometimes was are really hard. And kind of one of the rules that we have at home is we’re just not going to repeat news headlines, we’re not going to repeat and just say news headlines, we’re not going to just make axiomatic expressions or statements, without doing the work of exploring what the Bible actually says, and comparing everything back to the character of God, what is God after what you know? And so do that work. I mean, I’m saying this, I’m preaching to myself, like, do the work behind the scenes before you even say, everything for the public. And something that’s helpful is my dear friend, trillion Neubau, has written two books, one for kids and one for teenagers on enjoying the diversity that God’s created us. And ultimately, being able to just even have a beautiful resource in a children’s book, to start the conversation, to get to the heart of it. We’re not trying to solve a news headline, we’re trying to see the heart of God, and do that at your kitchen table.

Vanessa Hawkins
Thank you so much. That is awesome. Troy has books. Okay. Suzanne, what you got?

Suzanne Bates
Well, I would say the trouble I’ve seen is another one that is well for talking in the church about these issues. And of course, jemar tisby spoke on the color of compromise is another one. Those are two that I would say are good starting points for just looking at things, it does come a little bit more from the African American perspective, or went into this beautiful community is another one that we’ve been doing some work in even at Covenant as a small group of African Americans and looking at some of the principles that are applied there for how can we be this beautiful community, when we’re the minorities, and minority population and a majority environment? And so just how do we live that out? And of course, of course, please go to the word. Just study all the scriptures, around reconciliation, pull them all out, get a Thompson chain Reference Bible, look up those topical studies and go at it and learn first what the Lord is teaching and speaking about these things, see His compassion. See his zeal for his people see his love and see how he acts in it.

Vanessa Hawkins
That is definitely the most important book. Definitely the most important resource ordinay you got a resource for us, I would recommend

Courtney Doctor
Isabel Wilkerson’s The Warmth of Other Suns. She does a beautiful job of chronicle in three people’s lives, and letting you experience their journeys there. They’re different, but there’s a lot of similarities. It’s the migration of African Americans from the South to the North. And it’s, it’s hard, it’s heartbreaking. It’s transformative, I highly recommend it. But she also brings in she’s a brilliant researcher, and she’s tied these biographies in with with history and, and her research and so I would just highly recommend Isabel’s,

Vanessa Hawkins
another awesome one. And tonight.

Dennae Pierre
Okay, um, if you go to surge network, on our website, su R G, you can find a curriculum called neighbors table, one family, and it’s 12 weeks. And you can either sign up for an online one, or just get the curriculum and go through it with friends. But it takes but it really is designed to teach you how to have meal, there’s content that talks about reconciliation, but also meals with people that are different than you and how to look intentionally for people that are often excluded in your church community, or maybe not the majority group within your church and how to be a welcoming presence. And so that’s one and then what else?

Vanessa Hawkins
Thank you. Okay, yes, we’re 30 seconds and we and we want to honor our online community. And I want to end with this quote from Irwin and when I feel overwhelmed by this conversation being so large and slow movement in it, as much as it feels like our ecclesial press toward beautiful community has a spinning our wheels. Our hope isn’t based on our progress is based on God’s promise. We press based on that promise, gracious Father, thank You for this time together. I pray, Lord, that You would impress upon each of us how to vote move move into that revelation seven unity and diversity in Jesus name. Amen.