Why We Should Recover Cultural Apologetics

The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

[00:00:00] Joshua: But it seems that what Montaigne was calling for is a kind of, don’t really think about death, don’t really think about there’s still live your life. And he says, we’re not that kind of creature. And we’ll grow more and more restless when we try to do that. And I, and I think, um, that’s bearing out in many ways, kind of in today’s culture where people go from kind of streaming to very quickly protesting to finding their gods in religion and politics and other things.

[00:00:39] Collin: For many apologetics is associated with arguments over rational, philosophical proofs. It’s a matter of the head instead of the heart. Debate. Debate over facts instead of feelings. But no matter what kind of apologetics you practice, you’re arguing according to a certain set of rules. In a particular language, attuned to [00:01:00] what you expect will resonate in your time and your place.

In other words, it’s always cultural. It’s never purely timeless, and it’s never purely rational. We need to recover apologetics as a matter of the head. The heart and hands as well as the head. We need to recover apologetics as a project for the whole church and not just for those who enjoy arguing, what we call cultural apologetics.

It’s not a new academic discipline. It’s a means to reconnect the church. To the best biblical and historical resources for presenting and defending the faith Once for All Delivered to the Saints in Jew to three, and is the vision behind a new book, the Gospel after Christendom, an introduction to cultural apologetics, which I edited for Zondervan Reflective and the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics.

I’m joined by two of our contributors, both fellows for the Keller Center, Josh tro said Billy Graham, chair for Evangelism Cultural engagement here at Beeson Divinity School in Birmingham, Alabama. Visiting us this [00:02:00] week at Beeson and my church, Redeemer Community Church is Chris Watkin, associate professor of French and Francophone Studies at Monash University in Melbourne.

Australia and honored to have both of them joining us for this special episode of Gospel Bound recorded before a live Beason audience. Alright, Chris, let’s start with you. You write in the gospel after Christendom about the biblical vision for cultural apologetics. Uh, I think when you’re talking about this topic, almost everybody goes immediately to Acts 17, Paul at Mars Hill.

Um, any other examples? What else comes to mind?

[00:02:35] Christopher: I think the Bible is full, isn’t it, of people seeking to commend. The timeless gospel to a particular culture, and in a sense there’s nothing but that. Yeah. In the Bible, like the, you could drop down at any point in the Bible and see how the unchanging God and his, his way of salvation is his being explained within a cultural [00:03:00] context.

So in a sense that the whole Bible is the example, um, an an interesting juxtaposition to Acts 17 could be Acts 14. Do you remember when Paul is in Lira, uh, in a very rural setting and, uh, he doesn’t quote Greek poets, does he? Uh, but he’s talking about the, the reign. Who sent that? That was God. You know, the things that are immediate to you in, in your cultural context, that’s God who did that?

And in a sense it’s exactly the same message as Act 17, isn’t it? He appointed the times and places he’s in charge. Uh, but it’s presented in a way that helps the people in Lister and Derby to see that, oh, he’s, my God, he’s right here. In the midst of my cultural context and what you said at the beginning, I think Colin is incredibly important.

You said it’s not purely timeless and the key word there is purely, isn’t it? ’cause it is timeless. Paul’s gospel. He’s our gospel. David’s gospel, Abraham’s gospel, he’s [00:04:00] our gospel. Um, it’s unchanging. And yet as that gospel meets each cultural context, it takes a different shape. It doesn’t change. It’s still the same message of salvation, but it helps different groups of people to see who Jesus is, uh, differently.

Uh, think of one Corinthians one. What does Paul do with the Greek desire for wisdom? Uh, and the, the Jewish desire for miraculous science? Uh, he’s meeting each of those cultures where it’s at. He doesn’t go to a Jewish context and say, let me talk about wisdom. Doesn’t go to a Greek context and say, lemme talk about miraculous science.

He’s finding something within the culture. That the gospel both subverts the foolishness of God. Um, now God has made foolish the wisdom of the world and also fulfills the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom. And it’s the same message of the cross. It’s the same word of the cross in one [00:05:00] Corinthians one, but it’s hitting Jews and Greeks differently because of their different cultures.

That that’s all cultural apologetics is.

[00:05:10] Collin: Uh, Josh, this, this book covers a lot of different topics. Your chapter is on retrieval. I think that’s especially suitable for here at Beeson, where we focus a lot on, on history and doctrine. But what is it in apologetics? You also have a long academic career of writing about the discipline of apologetics, tracing different apologists, tracing them through history.

What is it that we are trying to recover in apologetics, which maybe implies is something been lost? Mm-hmm. Perhaps, or what are we trying to recover?

[00:05:41] Joshua: Yeah. I, I, the way that I was originally exposed to apologetics was kind of, here’s a series of silver bullet, silver bullet arguments. You can use kind of any opportunity, any occasion, and you just pull out your bullets and you start firing [00:06:00] and.

And what you actually see when you study history is I think the best apologists are very aware of their context. They’re very aware of who they’re talking to. And so I I, one of the, one of the things I’m trying to do in that chapter is I, I kind of have this love, if you’ve taken me, you know, this probably, I have this love hate relationship with the word cultural apologetics and, and sometimes I’ll get on my hobby horse and start talking about that, but.

One of the things that I’m, I’m concerned about is that cultural apologetics can be seen as something new. Something that, you know, Colin and Tim came up with, you know, scheming in their office in New York, in Tim’s office. Like, oh, okay, let’s come up with this new thing. And, and what I’m trying to show in the chapter is actually, maybe that’s a new word.

That’s a relatively new word, but this idea that that kind of, we need to study how people think. We need to study the idols that they’re worshiping. We need to get deeper to see [00:07:00] what are the, what the whether, what are the desires, what are their greatest fears, and learn how to speak to that. Well, once you define apologetics in that way and say that’s gonna look differently in different contexts, and then you go back and you kind of start looking at church history, you begin seeing this all over the place.

And so I’m limited on time in that chapter, but. I started with Augustine in City of God, and um, and you see him very much doing that res responding, responding to the fall of Rome, where people are going. It, it is an existential and theological crisis for the church, and he’s responding to that particular incident.

But what he goes into is actually, and this is quite interesting. This is part of what we’re retrieving. It’s, it’s actually what we might call apologetics for the church as well, because he’s recognizing that people are starting to waver in their faith. People are starting to doubt, [00:08:00] and so he’s addressing the questions they’re asking.

But in order to do that, he has to go deeper underneath the kind of currents of Roman culture to show the problems, to show the problems in their assumptions. And so what you, what we, what we end up here is retrieving both. Both a kind of awareness of the situation that’s going on, also retrieving the kind of pastoral spirit that you see in Augustine, or even, even in, in certain ways in Pascal.

That’s the other, the other figure I’m looking at in, in Lewis. But, but also, um, also in that kind of pastoral spirit, what we would call a biblical anthropology or a, a holistic anthropology. We’re, and, and Colin’s already alluded to this, but not just simply rational arguments. Yes. Arguments, but arguments that have, as one scholar says, actually has enough mass to move people.

An argument can be coherent, but it doesn’t get at someone’s kind of, um, you, you [00:09:00] might, you might give arguments, but it doesn’t actually get at the kind of. Existential everyday life meaning and purpose many times today. Um, and, and we can talk about some of those other kind of touch points, but you see that I think in the best ap within the tradition.

[00:09:16] Collin: Chris, were you consciously trying to do any retrieval work or using historical models in your book? Biblical critical theory?

[00:09:25] Christopher: Massively. Yeah. Um, it, it only really clicked for me what. What ended up being called biblical critical theory might look like when I first read Augustine City of God, um, and confession time, I, I didn’t understand much of it the first time I read it or the names of the, the Roman gods and heroes, like no idea who that is.

But one thing that I did get from it was the idea and, and this is just brilliant, and if you haven’t read the City of God. [00:10:00] Really make it a priority. It’s, it’s a tough book. I’m just gonna recommend one secondary text to help you get through it. Um, Charles Matthews lecturer, university of Virginia, has a series of talks, one on each chapter of the city of God.

I think you can get ’em off Amazon. It’s like the great book series or something if you Google. Charles Matthews, M-A-T-H-E-W-E-S, city of God. That’s the way I got into it. That’s how. I made sense of it subsequently, but the first time I read it, what I got from it was that he’s using the whole of the Bible in the second half of the city of God.

He’s starting off with the angels before creation, and he’s moving all the way through to the end of the Bible. That’s his framework for critiquing Rome, and he’s critiquing the whole of Roman society, not just sort of. Parachuting down and dismantling one thing that Rome is doing what wrong, and then airlifting himself back up afterwards, which is sometimes what our cultural critique can feel like.

But he’s looking at the whole ecosystem of Rome authority. It’s politics, it’s religion, it’s games, and pastimes. [00:11:00] And he’s filtering that through a biblical lens, and it is so. Powerful what he’s able to say because he’s speaking not simply as someone coming in with a bulldozer to say everything that Rome is doing is wrong.

You know, he’s teaching rhetoric in Carthage and Rome. He understands his Cicero. He’s teaching Cicero to Roman boys. He gets it. He gets why this culture sparkles. To Rome. He, he can talk about the culture in a way that Roman’s listening to him think, yes, you understand, you’ve got it. And yet he’s not so immersed in the culture that he can’t also take a step back because he’s looking at it through a biblical point of view.

And just see the, the weirdness almost the, the hilariousness at times of Roman cultures. There there’s this lovely, I won’t go on for too long, I promise. Car there’s this one. Um, moment in the city of God where Augustine, um, is looking at the number of gods, you need to guard a doorway. And he says, hold on, let [00:12:00] me count.

You need one God for the hinges. You need one for the threshold, and you need one for the door itself. You need three gods. It’s a guarded doorway, like one door person is usually enough. You know, this is a bit overkill. And so he’s able to look at the culture with the eyes of an outsider because he’s his blood.

Blood runs beline, as they say, of John Jon Bunion, and yet he’s also an insider. And so for this pattern of being an insider outsider, using the whole of the Bible to critique the whole of the culture is just brilliant.

[00:12:33] Collin: Brilliant. It’s dangerous to be caught talking about Augustine between the two of you.

So watch out there. Uh, Chris, your concept of diagonalization uh, which you lay out in biblical critical theory, it’s, it’s come under some scrutiny and debates, especially those over Tim Keller and what others have described as the third way. Um, your biblical critical theory was. Really [00:13:00] a, rare book, even with academic length, academic heft.

You still drove a lot of conversation around the church. Did your critics in the sub, in the last couple years, have they helped you rethink anything that you wrote in that book?

[00:13:15] Christopher: It’s a really helpful question. I, think as an academic you are used. To getting lots of criticism. Um, that’s, the way academia works.

Blind peer review is, really healthy people, people telling you they kindly how you’re wrong.

[00:13:30] Collin: We should try it with preachers in the church, huh? Well, yes,

[00:13:32] Christopher: I suppose as that as well.

[00:13:33] Collin: It’s, it’s actually been anonymous emails,

[00:13:35] Christopher: um,

[00:13:36] Collin: that you get.

[00:13:38] Christopher: So the, the, the good faith criticism that, I’ve received over the book has just been incredibly helpful, uh, pointing to things that, that I hadn’t necessarily thought about.

I. don’t think there’s anything that I would go back and change. But the critiques have pushed me to go deeper and to expand what I was saying. And, and one key area, I think is the, [00:14:00] the way in which a, biblical framework, like the one I’ve just been talking about in, relation to Augustine, what that looks like on the ground.

The difference between your, your sort of overall strategy as a Christian and your particular tactics in a situation. So for example, biblical critical theory, fine, but when I get into the voting booth, where do I put my cross? You know, how does it shake out in those very practical situations? Um, and, and where I’ve come to on that one is I think if you don’t have a framework that is bigger.

Than the platform offered by the two parties. You can’t meaningfully put your cross anywhere, so you’re just gonna be a slave of one of the package deals given to you. In order to make that choice meaningfully, one way or another, you need a framework bigger than those two. And so it’s not that there’s a tension.

Between having to put your cross somewhere and [00:15:00] having a framework that’s bigger than a party platform, and that doesn’t fully fit with either party platform, it’s actually that you need that framework to make a meaningful choice that’s not just a slavish choice.

[00:15:12] Collin: You and I were talking about this a little bit last night, and you had mentioned the way that it doesn’t make any sense to do this anyway because the different parties ideologies will change.

I think what we’ve seen though is a giving way of ideological orientation to parties toward more identity politics. And that then can shift because the ideologies don’t matter. It’s simply a matter of one tribe versus another tribe. But that becomes even more dangerous in a lot of different ways there.

Um. Josh, you of course, you teach apologetics here. You taught apologetics other places before. We have a partnership in Apologetics with Beeson and, and the Keller Center. Uh, apologetics has been really in the news as of late. It’s been a kind of been a lot of people talking about this, a lot of people [00:16:00] practicing this.

We’ve had some prominent example of especially confrontational or debate style apologetics. Um, seems to be working pretty well on college campuses especially, and social media, and I’m wondering, is there a contrast there between that and what’s been described as a more winsome approach to apologetics, or is that inconsistent with what we’re describing as cultural?

Yeah, apologetics.

[00:16:26] Joshua: Well, I think what we’re talking about is arguments. So I, I wouldn’t want, I know, I think Chris would say this too, we’re not just saying, Hey, let’s leave those arguments aside and just tell our stories. You know, that’s not, and so when we, um, when we’re talking about telling a better story or out narrating that there’s, there’s a way to think about rationality that is, is rationality simply facts.

And the, the kind of evidence available and then basic logic or does, does, does do those things fit [00:17:00] into a bigger kind of framework that social imaginary or that framework or those assumptions can carry a lot of weight on how people are actually, uh, engaging facts. And so I think one of the differences is we’re we’re recognizing not only.

Are people often not Persu actually persuaded, and we’ll get to this, what’s working here in a second. They’re not actually persuaded. To, to switch sides simply with facts, simply with, but you have to go underneath and go deeper. And that actually takes often more than a, a debate, but a conversation. Um, and, and so that’s, that’s part of why I think you see some contrast because we’re trying to work through some assumptions that people have that aren’t gonna be as easily resolved by just kind of throwing out facts when we talk about working.

I mean, that gets into kind of pragmatic model. And again, I, I think we should talk about fruitfulness and that can be helpful, but sometimes what’s working is just a spectacle IE working, right? And so if you put [00:18:00] people into a cage match, people kind of say, Ooh, how, how’s that gonna go? But is that working?

Is and in what sense is that working? I think we need to ask some deeper questions. I mean, is that if, if the bigger, um, if the, if the aim is. Disciples who look like Jesus and bear fruit of the Spirit. Then the tactics to build off some of the language Chris is using, I’d say should, should fit with our kind of strategy of where we’re going.

And so if, and, and this is what you see and the only time the word that’s, you know, uh, that’s translated, you know, apologetics one Peter three 15 giving a reason. The, the, the only time we have that in the New Testament, it’s with gentleness and respect. So there seems to be this onus on gentleness, respect, pers persuading by going deeper than merely kind of evidence and trying to get at the heart.

And I think that’s. Maybe some of the differences is what [00:19:00] we’re seeing. But let me, let me give you maybe, maybe a, an analogy since we’re talking football and an Alabama LSU. You know, if you, if you show up to the game on Saturday in your Alabama hat, uh, and you, and you go roll Tide and you get into like, get in an Auburn fan’s face and say, roll tide.

I mean, are you persuading them to become an ali? Is that gonna be effective? Now if you see other Bama fans and you say Roll Tide, there’s say Roll Tide, and you say it’s working. See, this is really working. Everyone’s excited. Right? And is is that kind of. What we mean by working that people are getting excited when we yell really loud for our team and we say everyone else is losers.

Well that can draw a, it starts the video of the fight on social media and, and we that can draw a kind of Bama fan, you know, I guess, or Auburn fan and that’s your side and say, yeah, we’re the best. Yeah. Is that actually persuading someone to switch teams? [00:20:00] I, I don’t think so, and I actually know so, ’cause it’s deeply, it’s deeply religious here, right.

Auburn and Alabama football. Yeah. And I do wonder sometimes when we’re, when we’re, we’re saying something’s working, it’s certainly drawing a crowd, it’s certainly causing a lot of excitement. But if the, if, if the aim is making disciples, um, is it, if it’s actually persuading the unconvinced. Um, well, I’m, I’m not, I’m not sure if, if that’s always the case.

Yeah.

[00:20:29] Collin: Do you have thoughts there, Chris, in light of the, the sermon that you just preached, where you focused on the kind of people that were becoming as opposed to foc focusing merely on the supposed outcomes?

[00:20:41] Christopher: It would be a great shame, would it not if the people who had heard Paul, uh, preach in lister and Derby, uh, said that’s what you’ve gotta do in Athens.

Um, or if the Athenians said, you’ve gotta quote the poets, that’s the way, that’s the way to win them. Um, but it’s the same preacher [00:21:00] with radically differently clothed messages in, in, in both contexts. Um, because the audience is, is different. Um. There’s also a, there should also, should there not be a, a, an admission in the church, a, a tolerance for a range of approaches.

Uh, we have different personalities. We, we have different congregations we’re, we’re preaching to. Um, and if we insist that there be one single. Cookie cutter mood that we must adopt as we commend the gospel to people. Uh, I think we, we, we are laying on people, um, a burden that that scripture doesn’t mandate of us.

[00:21:49] Collin: Seems like we also get stuck in a ditch debating the ministry of Jesus. Because some people will talk about, well, there’s this passage over here where he seems to be so gentle, respectful, [00:22:00] but then over here he seems not to be. He seems to be much more confrontational. How are we supposed to synthesize those?

[00:22:08] Christopher: I think there are two things to say there. I mean, first of all, we are not Jesus and no in, in the very. Important sense that when he’s letting rip at the Pharisees and you can only imagine him shouting in those passages, can’t you? You brood of vipers. He knows absolutely that he is in the right and this is the right target.

These are the people to be angry at. Um. Our own hearts, although we, we do take stands, uh, and we, we do draw lines. We should always remember that we don’t have his 2020 vision of things. We, we seek to understand and interpret God’s word correctly. But I think there’s, there’s a danger in reading directly over from the ministry of Jesus to us as if we were in the same position as him.

Um, so you will, it, it would be better, I think to, to read over from people [00:23:00] like Timothy. To us, um, that there’s a certain humility that comes with not being the son of God, um, that it, that it behooves us to, um, to think about.

[00:23:10] Collin: But, but I think there were quite a bit of humility in the Son of God himself Indeed, which allowed him to be able to even in love issue those very difficult.

Condemnations,

[00:23:20] Christopher: absolutely. He’s also the judge. But, but with that proviso in hand, it, it is really striking, isn’t it? How versatile Jesus is. Like he, he’s pitch perfect. He just, lets rip at those Pharisees, like no quarter given he’s in their faces, even when they try and sort of come a little bit to meet him.

He’s not having any of it. He’s, he’s vicious. Pharisees really vicious. And then you, you look at a, an incident like the, the woman caught in adultery. He doesn’t even say anything. He bends down. He writes in the sound or the woman at the, well, he’s more gentle with, um. And [00:24:00] I, I think what we take from that is that there are times that do call for stridency, and there are times that call for great gentleness and Jesus could get it right every time.

And the problem with us is that we treat Pharisees as if they were women caught in adultery often. We caught, we treat women caught in adultery as if they were Pharisees. And that’s why we need each other in the church, isn’t it? ’cause none of us has Jesus’ pitch perfectness. And so we all need someone to pull us aside and say, you went in too hard there.

That person was hurting, that was not okay. Or to say, this is a false teacher. We, you know, this is a wolf. You know, so we, we help each other to try and get a little bit closer to Jesus’s perfect assessment of every situation.

[00:24:47] Joshua: Um, and that’s, that’s really good Chris and I, I, I just would want to add, if there seems to be a pattern, uh, in the New Testament with insider outsider, so you see this in one Corinthians five, [00:25:00] those inside the church versus those outside the church and were to judge each other inside the church.

But, but, but, but not outside is what is what he’s saying. And then you see this, and even the examples you gave us were people who are marginalized. Put to the, kind of pushed out by the religious community. He seems to be, um, he, he, he treats them as people who kind of see their, their sickness, their, they’re, they’re oppressed, they’re marginalized, and he, he, he reaches out to them with a kind of different spirit than he does to the religious leaders.

So again, I’m not, I’m not saying that that’s kind of law there. ’cause this is, this is about being the right type of apologist, uh, apologist of virtue and to be doing this in community, as Christopher is saying. And so we have to make certain, uh, decisions of prudence rather than just simply law here on how to.

How to care for people. Um, uh, care for loss of people, care for people doubting in, in the church. But I, I also think as a guide, there’s, there, there seems to me to be a pattern in the [00:26:00] New Testament. Um, not just, well, I don’t like that guy, so I’m gonna come in hard. I don’t like that person. Uh, there, there seems to be other factors there that, um, that I think the Lord has given us to help us discern.

[00:26:18] Collin: Shift gears a little bit here. Chris. Now, apologetics can be intimidating. Uh, we’ve just heard you preach, we hear both of you talk, uh, so eloquently or a erudite. We can’t all teach the way that you guys do. Um, haven’t had the time or the years to be able to study as you’ve studied. But the premise that we have in this book, the Gospel after Christen them, and what we teach here at Be and Divinity School, is that apologetics is for the whole church.

How can those two things go together at the same time when they hear people who have studied all these things and they feel, I, I’m, I’m never gonna catch up to that. How can it be for everybody else too?

[00:26:57] Christopher: I, I think the [00:27:00] three word answer is one Corinthians 12. That every gift is, is given for the whole church.

Um, and so Josh and myself and others, uh, have have a certain. Ability to, um, to write and, and to use arguments. Um, but we need to be jolly careful that we’re using that to serve the whole church. Let me take an example, um, that, that might help us to see. There’s a couple at the My Home Church in Australia that are just wonderful at hospitality.

They’ve got this fire pit going on Friday evenings that people come along to, and that I invite their friends and if there’s someone at church who’s by themselves. Yep. You will see one of these couple be beside them within 30 seconds. You know, they’re, they’re just really, really good. Got a special gift at welcoming people and showing hospitality.

Now, how do I respond to that as someone who’s a little bit more awkward and, and [00:28:00] doesn’t, doesn’t have that gift? Well, first of all, I have rejoice in it. I’m so glad they’re in our church. So it’s lovely. They are helping the rest of us to see how to welcome people and how to, to fold people in and to, to create a porch for the church where outsiders can become insiders.

And, and I also learned from them, oh, that’s the first line he used with that person. He didn’t know. I’m try and remember that next time, or, oh, I see. I, I noticed that person as well, but I didn’t go and sit with them. And now I see he, she’s sitting with them Okay. Note herself. And so I’m. I’m rejoicing in them and learning from them.

And I think that’s, that’s the case with all of our gifts, isn’t it? If we use that image from one Corinthians 12, we have all bits of the body, you know, Josh and I, no offense Josh, but we might be the toenails on the body, you know, the, the apologists. Um, we, we, you know, we’re we doing our toenail thing and

[00:28:53] Collin: better be clipped or else you become Yeah, that’s right.

[00:28:55] Christopher: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Neat. Cleaning. Um, uh, and you [00:29:00] know, we’re, we’re doing our toenail thing and the whole body is benefiting, but we are not any other part of the body that, and everybody is a part of the body doing an irreplaceable job, but it’s, it’s the whole that benefits and apologetics is just a tiny little bit of that bigger picture.

Hmm.

[00:29:18] Collin: Josh, let’s, let’s turn to pastors. This is the work that you’re primarily engaged with. Hey, combined. Let’s got a couple questions here. One, why should pastors study apologetics? And that includes in the seminary, but also how does that relate to any trends that you’re seeing in Apologetics today?

[00:29:36] Joshua: Yeah.

No, I, I do see more, I do see more interest in apologetics. I think one of the, one of the reasons is we have. Um, well, people in the church are struggling with doubt and unbelief, and so there was a kind of, in certain theological circles, uh, you know, maybe, maybe even around here in certain theological circles.

It was a kind of, in the past it was like, well, it’s apologetics. Those are just, you know, amateur [00:30:00] theologians. Um. That was a joke. Okay. Anyway, you didn’t laugh. Yeah. That, that’s right. That’s right. Yeah. Uh, uh Okay. You’re laughing now maybe at me. Um, so, um, you know what, what’s, but I think once you, you know, you’re dealing with a mother whose son is saying.

Like, I don’t believe that stuff anymore. All of a sudden you become an apologist, you know, all of a sudden, um, when you’re, when you’re talking to somebody and they’re like, I just, I’m really struggling with, with evil and suffering at that moment. You’re an apologist. I mean, I mean, you’re not a professional apologist.

You might have to the gift, the gift of that moment even. How do, how do you offer Yeah. A word of encouragement or where do you point them? And, but certainly for pastors who. They’re coming. Like, you’re, you’re the frontline of these questions. And so for me, apologetics isn’t separated from [00:31:00] everything else we do in theological education, but like preaching and like counseling.

It’s bringing all those things together, all of the disciplines, new Testament, old Testament, um, history and doctrine, ethics, all those things. And then there’s this moment of ministry. Mm-hmm. And, and you’re called to point them to Christ to help them doubt their doubts, help them with their unbelief. And to me that’s just so much when I was in pastoral ministry, what I fund myself doing and really, uh, uh, a book I wrote years ago called Telling a Better Story was just, uh, the kind of framework and the type of thinking of, okay, how do I step inside where people are at?

How do I understand the story that that’s actually dominating their, kind of, the way they’re thinking, the story that they’re in that just feels normal. And then how, how do I help them see the problems of that? And then how Christianity really is a better story. How, how, how they wanna worship [00:32:00] God and how that’s better than worshiping whatever they’re worshiping.

And to me, this was the kind of grid that. The kind of gospel persuasion day in and day out. And so now when I go to actually speak at churches, they typically want me to come do something on evangelism, and we start talking about. Cultural narratives and we start talking about what’s going on in culture and the the actual stories that are dominating out there.

But very quickly it gets really kind of uncomfortable for most people. ’cause it’s like, actually this is the stories that we’re living. The story of achievement, the story of I’m in control, I want more control, I want to extend more of my reach. And then we just kind of baptize the gospel into that. And very quickly it, it becomes yes.

What started off as a conversation about how to do evangelism becomes really an opportunity to, to repent and believe again. And so because we are categorized by the culture, it’s not simply culture out there, but it’s culture all around us. So the kind of cultural ex of Jesus, the kind of understanding [00:33:00] what’s going on and how our hearts are being formed and our desires are being formed, and then countering that with true belief in the gospel story to me is this part and parcel with ministry.

And so we. So that’s why I’m very happy to call it whatever people wanna call it. Let’s take people to Christ. Let’s destroy false. Let’s show the emptiness of false idols and the problems with unbelief, and let’s point people to Jesus and make much of Him. And then if we wanna call it, well, anything that’s fine with me.

Uh, and, but. We’ve called it cultural apologetics, and I’m, I’m, I’m, I guess I’m okay with it, Colin.

[00:33:35] Collin: Finally, all those debates across the thin walls on the third floor, um, uh, a quick, uh, quick question for both of you as we prepare to take some audience questions here. Um, this is a, this is a retrieval project as we talked about earlier.

So there are other, there are other role models in history. We can actually prompt you here. You just finished reading this book on [00:34:00] Pascal, is that right? Are you in the process of it? I, I mean, I’m reading the same book. This is a really good book. I’ve really been enjoying it. So maybe talk a little bit about Pascal as another one of these models.

Um, and then briefly if there’s anybody else you wanna reference. We’ve, we’ve covered August and we’ve covered some others, but

[00:34:15] Joshua: yeah, so his, his context, just really quickly, there’s two things going on that are really, um, uh, you got 17th century France and you’ve got. Kind of two figures. One, Michel Montaigne who is before him, and he was really formally Catholic, but he, he’s living in the midst of religious wars, violence, and he’s also well schooled enough and has the leisure enough to read a lot of philosophy.

His kind of, his kind of saying was like, what do I really know? What do we really know? Who, who knows? It’s a kind of nonchalant, kind of nonchalant kind of view of life, and so. Um, at what one, what one scholar calls imminent contentment, [00:35:00] like just tend to your garden. Um, uh, Montaigne was the inventor of the modern essay, and it’s this kind of, this about, well, what’s the essay about?

It’s, well, it’s kind of my thoughts and, and you can, you can kind of see Montaigne, by the way, in a lot of things, kind of like you do you. You know, it’s kind of an early proto version of you do you kind of philosophy. Um, and so he’s dealing with that. He’s really concerned about that because it’s leading people to not really take God in the Christian life serious, even like nominal Christianity or the kind of his fear of people who were.

Certain people were just concerned with gambling and, um, playing cards and hunting, and so he wants to address them. But then you also have somebody else who was disturbed by Montaigne, which was Rene De Cart. And Rene de Cart was of course, after a kind of certainty, and he thought he could get it through a kind of systematic doubting.[00:36:00]

And so, uh, Pascal. Uh, I probably will someone that’s not gonna like this, but Pascal takes a third way. Okay? And he takes it and he’s actually takes, and he says, well, um, Descartes isn’t being rational enough about his rationality. We’re not this, uh, these just kind of brains working our way through things.

And, uh, and so he takes up actually some of Montaigne’s kind of arguments. He applies them against Descartes. But then he, he um, he basically calls Monte’s Bluff and he says, we’re not the type of creatures that can live like that. We’re not simply kind of, you know, my dog Otis is very content in his dogness, right?

He doesn’t seem to be, uh, contemplating the deeper things of life. He doesn’t foresee his death and then is kind of living in light of. Trying to cover that up or trying to cope with that, you know, and [00:37:00] so that’s not, but, but it seems that what Montaigne was calling for is a kind of, well, don’t, don’t, you know, just don’t really think about death, don’t really think about there’s still live your life.

And he says, we’re not that kind of creature. And we’ll grow more and more restless when we try to do that. And I, and I think, um, that’s bearing out in many ways, kind of in today’s culture where people go from kind of streaming to very quickly protesting, to finding their gods and the religion and politics and other things.

So I think he’s such a, um, an incredible kind of observer of human nature. Then kind of, And it’s just a great example of engaging these dominant strands of thought in his own day and then has a lot of fruit for us today.

[00:37:46] Collin: Yeah. For some of you who’ve taken my course on, on cultural apologetics, you know that even as I’ve developed that course over the years, I was not particularly familiar with Montaigne.

I didn’t have your academic, uh, study either one of you there to do that. And [00:38:00] understanding more about Montaigne was the key to unlocking the own way that I was narrating intellectual history over the last 500 years because. I think he’s one of the more contemporary feeling figures that you can very clearly see is influence with people who, like me, were not very familiar with Montaigne there.

So, uh, Chris, any other apologists who come to mind, uh, for you in history that you

[00:38:25] Christopher: Absolutely. And how about a, a, a grid for making sure that we, um. consume apologetics in a, in a structured way with, with three levels. So the, the bottom, it could be the top level. The order doesn’t matter. It’s Podcasts, sort of quick reactions to things that are happening in the world.

Um, what should I think about the thing that was on the news yesterday? Um, it’s really, really helpful. So, four quick podcasts that if you’re not aware of these, that they might be worth listening to. Rebecca McLaughlin has won conference in Christianity. Uh, Ramon Pierre [00:39:00] has a, a great podcast, uh, Glen Scrivener.

Gavin Orland, uh, four great ways of just getting Christian takes on what’s happening right now. That’s level one. Uh, level two is your sort of between 100 and 200 page books. Um, you know, they’re not popcorn, but, but they’re not academic level books, so a lot of CS Lewis would come, uh, in this, uh, area. Bit bit of John Stott uh, someone like that.

Um. And then I, I think certainly for, for people in this audience who are studying, you know, as a full-time occupation at the moment, you, you should also be thinking, how am I gonna stretch myself apologetically? What, what books am I gonna drop into a third level that, that are actually quite hard, but incredibly rewarding?

So in addition to city of. Which I’ve already banged on about, uh, in this podcast. Um, how about some John Frame, one of his big volumes, uh, doctrine of the, the word of God or, or, or doctrine of [00:40:00] God? Um, or how about, uh, some puritan uh, writing a little bit harder, uh, but incredibly nourishing, uh, and I think if we can think of our apologetics consumption.

On those three levels and make sure that we are doing some of that within say, a a three month period. Uh, some of each of those, uh, that’ll be a really healthy way, uh, to be, uh, growing in wisdom.

[00:40:22] Collin: I think a lot of people, Chris would’ve think thought of the puritans as apologists, but if you understand apologetics, the way that Josh was just describing, and then if you understand the way that it was conducted by Tim Keller, who was deeply framed by the Puritans understanding, this is the application of.

Timeless wisdom to weary wounded souls for today. So it’s a sort of, sort of pastoral care and we know that the, uh, Puritans did that very well. Alright, let’s take a couple questions. So let’s open it up. Okay. Uh, let’s start down here.

[00:40:54] Audience Member: Hi, my name’s KJ Pew. I’m a pastor in Tuscaloosa. And I have a serious [00:41:00] question and a sentimental question.

Okay. Uh, I’m speaking to a group of students at the University of Alabama tonight and, um, uh, on how to engage skeptics, and I’m gonna talk about out narrating, what should I say to them? About out narrating. Do my work for me. What should I say? That’s my serious question. Uh, sentimental question. Uh, I lived for three years in North Yorkshire.

What do you miss about Yorkshire? Chris

[00:41:28] Christopher: e Lad. That’s a, it’s a lovely question. That is, um. I, I, I think my answer to both of your questions is very similar, strangely, um, how’s he gonna do this? Um, because in both cases it’s, it’s the people, isn’t it? Um, what I miss most about Yorkshire is, is the lovely people, uh, of Yorkshire, um, uh, with their particular.

Views of the world, my particular view of the world, uh, particular [00:42:00] history with the coal mines and so forth. It’s, it’s a shared story. Um, and it’s, you know, if you’ve grown up in that part of the world, it’s, it’s a story to which you have a lot of affection, uh, when you love going back. Um, and I, I, in terms of out aiding, I think that if we don’t start with.

The, the person or the people in front of us love that person and want to know what is their story. So before we launch upon them, you know, with, let me tell you the 10 ways you are wrong, um, you know, um, just be genuinely interested in tell me about how you see the world, what’s your story? Um, because I think another part of that is that often.

People’s own views of the world are not apparent to themselves, especially if you live as part of the dominant culture. Like if you are part of the hegemonic way of seeing the world, you’re never told that your way of seeing the world is actually a way among many. You just think it’s common sense. It’s very interesting to see how that [00:43:00] phrase is used, isn’t it?

That term, common sense. Um, the way I see the world is just common sense. Like those Christians over there, they’re weird. They have a view of the world, but I don’t just with common sense, part of the. Way of helping people is to help people to, to name and to make visible their own view of the world. Kj, like what, what, how do, what is the good life?

I mean, you wouldn’t necessarily put it in those philosophical terms, but, you know, tell me what would be an ideal day for you? How would you spend it? You know, and, and smile along with them. Feel your way into that view of the world. And then when that’s on the table, when the person I I is understanding and articulating, this is my.

View of the good life. This is my sense of what’s wrong with the world. You’ll be in a much better position to, to compare that with, well, let’s look at the gospel. Let’s look at the two stories alongside each other. But unless you’ve done the work of, of just listening and asking curious questions, um, that the person may not even be aware that they’ve got a view.[00:44:00]

[00:44:00] Collin: Um, that’s why in culture, politics here, the first exercise that I assign. Is a personal narrative. Learning the process of seeing yourself from the outside. ’cause that’s effective in any kind of ministry. Every missionary has to do that. But learning to do that in our own context and teaching others to do that, likewise, including an evangelism, is very important.

I,

[00:44:20] Joshua: I think I just, I just would say there’s something about when you’re giving a talk and you describe a reality that people are living in. It’s like, oh, oh my goodness. And, and, and they haven’t even connected the dots of why they’re anxious or why they’re angry. Even before you get to the gospel. There’s, there’s something about that moment when they’re think, this person’s been reading my mail.

Right? And they just ex, I mean, maybe even reading mail I hadn’t even fully read yet. And then you say, and so this. This is why you feel this, this is maybe why you’re feeling anxious or [00:45:00] angry or lonely. Um, and they hadn’t connected the dots and said, this is the good news of the gospel.

[00:45:06] Intro: Uh,

[00:45:06] Joshua: Christ died for you.

You can stop trying to achieve your way. You can stop trying to control your way to kind of create some kind of, you know, safety or cosmic identity. And then you drop gospel in and it’s like, I just heard it for the first time. No, you’ve heard the gospel all your life. Yeah. But it just now has mapped onto your reality.

[00:45:25] Collin: Heard it, but not received it.

[00:45:26] Joshua: Yeah, and I, and I think that that’s Chris Exactly. Right. I think one time, you know, you, you start reading all this stuff and all the stuff you’re reading is really to help you either to be able to have that conversation. Not so you tell them, but you’re better kind of, your, your ears are better kind of perked up to, to hear what they’re saying and then, you know, the cultural air they’re breathing so you can help them connect the dots for them.

Or if you’re in front of people. With humility, you can say maybe this is what’s going on. And I think that’s where cultural ex of Jesus really helps you. Not so we can quote Taylor and everybody else, but so we can [00:46:00] actually minister if people can

[00:46:01] Collin: again, also sounds like good counseling.

[00:46:02] Joshua: Yeah. Yeah too.

[00:46:04] Audience Member: Guys, uh, questions may related for all three of you. Um, for ministers and future ministers in the room, you know Dr. Citro, I know you care about classical politics, about the facts. How do we balance like. Asking what’s, you know, behind these deeper desires of the heart while still taking questions and facts?

Seriously. I work with some college students a good bit at, at my church, and we had like a student who was having a lot of, uh, uh, doubts and thinking about joining, doing, uh, Catholicism. And you know, there’s a trend right now of people, young men joining Catholicism and Orthodoxy related to like masculinity.

He would talk to people and there was always this, you know, temptation to say, well what are you really asking? And he was like, I’m asking about these, these doctrinal issues. You know? So then

[00:46:54] Joshua: yeah,

[00:46:55] Audience Member: when, you know, we, he, what helped him a lot is kind of the more nitty gritty, [00:47:00] talking about those details that really answered a lot of his questions.

But there was like a frustration he felt sometimes of like, you know, and I think you could obviously relate this to doubts about God and apologetics and stuff of like, you know, how do we balance like getting behind. Like the, the matters of the heart while still those sort of, you know, like the facts and taking the questions seriously.

Yeah.

[00:47:20] Joshua: Yeah. And thanks. And I’ll, I’ll try to be real quick and I, um, just ’cause I know we have other questions and these guys will wanna say something, but, um, I’m, I’m glad you asked that because you get all that, like if you take me, you’re gonna get that too. I think the, um, the part of the issue is if people have this missing kind of idea of how, of how.

Rationality works or how Christianity works. It’s like if you can convince me with a hundred percent certainty and so like the t and so then, and I just, I’m just this kind of logic machine and then you, you throw out all the facts and it’s like, I’m still not convinced you’ve [00:48:00] kind of seeded the playing field.

In other words, uh, you know, so I’m all for kind of arguments for the resurrection. I’m all for, I think. You know, God is the best explanation for, for so many things we see in the natural world. And using those I think can be really helpful. It’s, it’s really a matter to go back to kind of the previous part of, of prudence and wisdom.

And I think if you’re always skirting like kind of those types of things with, well, tell me what you’re really after then it, you’re disrespecting that person, right? Like you’re saying, well, let me just get under, well you can start off by saying this is how it. Answer that question, but you sometimes need to do an a little bit of epistemological work.

Don’t use that word, but for most people. But you’ve gotta do some work so they’re not thinking Christianity works. Um, like, okay, you just, you just pile up evidence and then you balance it out and we’ll put God on the dock. Um, that that’s not how this, this thing goes. I think if we, if, [00:49:00] if we don’t keep that in mind, then we can kind of fall on that trap.

And because it sometimes has gone that way, there can be this kind of overreaction the other way, but for the deeper way to kind of avoid that. You know, come join me in

[00:49:15] Christopher: Apologetics class and we’ll talk more about it. So I, I think, Jacob, that the, the scriptures set a, a sort of a framework, don’t they, for this, that, that there’s, there’s a diversity of approaches to the truth regarding the scriptures.

So, you know, some of the New Testament letters are very architecturally precise. The way that they argue from premise to conclusion about God. And then you’ve got the Psalms, and then you’ve got the wisdom literature and the Old Testament narratives. And some people will be drawn more naturally to one of those modes of engaging with God like it sounds that the person you are speaking with, Jacob is very sort of New Testament ish.

You know, I want, I want the cold hard argument, which is great. So you [00:50:00] drop into the Bible at that point. Let’s study. Whatever it escalations together and, and think about Catholicism or whatever they’re, they’re trying to go through in that context. But if that person only ever reads escalations and never casts an eye over the Psalms or Chronicles or whatever, then over time you would begin to think there’s something wrong here.

So there’s a difference between dropping into the Bible at one point. You know, some people. Converted through the book of Ecclesiastes. ’cause that’s just where they’re at. Um, but if they only ever read Ecclesiastes, we’re gonna say, you’re missing out on so much. And so there’s a difference between where you drop in or the keyhole you go through, and whether you then broaden out to.

Take on other biblical modes of engaging with God. And if you don’t, I think you wanna be coming alongside that person over time and saying, you know, there’s, there’s more Bible than the epistles.

[00:50:55] Collin: I, I’m gonna have to close on this one. One other point there, um, [00:51:00] the Molly Worthham from the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill shared her testimony on this gospel bound podcast, and she brought together three different elements.

One was JD Greer’s. Very straightforward evangelistic appeal. You need to believe in Christ. Then there was anti, uh, NT Wrights book being recommended by Tim Keller on the resurrection. Just study the facts. Then there was CS Lewis’s Space Trilogy, which would typically fall a little bit more into the cultural apologetics part of that, they’re, they’re not competing against each other.

Those are complimentary. It’s just a matter of, of discipleship there. So, and I would also to, to that person, you know, Gavin Orland really helpful and that front. Alright. Thanks for joining me for this episode of Gospel Bound. Please thank my guests, sir.

[00:51:46] Intro: Good luck.

[00:51:54] Collin: Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospel Bound for more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter. [00:52:00] Head over to tgc.org/gospel bound rate and review gospel bound on your favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we’re bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.