The Illuminating Power of Scripture and Song

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Collin Hansen
You know what you’ll get when a songwriter publishes a book. You get lines that stick in your mind that lodge in your heart, you get a conclusion like this. The sunrise does not guarantee that there will be no dark days days when the fog sets in thick and foreboding. But the morning does promise that the sun is there, faithful and rising, even when it is hidden by the clouds, by God’s Spirit, bringing the faithful sunrise to pierce through the fog of your view, illuminating his words to you, in every circumstance, every change of season that has yet to come, inspiring you with hope, with a new song of praise. And that’s the end of Sandra McCracken his new book send out your light, the illuminating power of Scripture and song published by b&h you’ll find in this book the same depth of spiritual insight and emotion that characterizes her songs. She writes this, if we sing songs with thin ideas, superficial hopes, and more hype than authenticity, we will find ourselves depleted in the times when we need some truth to fall back on. We need songs sturdy enough to sing at the bedside of a dying friend. Less what it’s the kind of emotion and kind of truth that Sandra has helped instill in me with her whole songs album and also with songs such as we will feast in the house of Zion and steadfast in particular, they’re better than nostalgia, which she describes as a ghost. They point me to God, who is love, love his love. Sandra writes backwards and forwards. You can take it with you. And it is not bound by time. Well, Sandra joins me on gospel round to discuss embodied worship, tortured artists, the Nashville Sound deconstruction, and more. Sandra, thanks for joining me on gospel bound.

Sandra McCracken
Thank you so much, Colin, and it’s good to be with you.

Collin Hansen
Oh, how? How have you processed the last couple years I’m thinking here about the lack of concerts as well as gathered worships for so much of that time. It’s been painful, not only financially, I’m sure, but also spiritually. And I love that you wrote this, you say we are made to sing. Even if you don’t feel like you can carry a tune. There’s something about embodied singing, lifting up our voices that gives us a fuller experience of who we are. And what we are made for. This is one where we are made to send out the light of God, there are no talent qualifications, no auditions, you will not be voted off for being off key. I missed that Sandra, Miss that in my church. I missed that and concerts, conferences and all that. How have you thought through that?

Sandra McCracken
Yeah, that’s a good question. I think, for so many of us in different ways, the last few years has really opened up more of our longing, it’s it’s not that, yeah, it’s deepened our longing, just that we’ve been apart from one another, we’ve been apart from some of those rhythms of singing together, we’ve been behind masks, we’ve been, you know, behind zoom screens, or whatever. And I think, I think in that it has been a unique experience for all of us to go through all this. But it also has been a way of tapping into what’s probably beneath the surface at any given time. You know, and sometimes we only feel that longing when we’re going through suffering or some kind of major circumstance change. So in that way, it’s it’s an invitation to come back to see that God is our provision. And that and that we are made for community we’re made for singing all these things that that we took for granted maybe before become a little bit more of like an ache in our spirit that we would want to be back there doing these things.

Collin Hansen
Many people Sandra, they, they think of artists as solitary, they think of them as, as tortured. But you write that success for you in music is about community. And I’m wondering if you could talk to your younger self, what might you advise about seeking community as an artist,

Sandra McCracken
if I look back at the arc of my formation as a as a you know, now I’m vocationally a singer, songwriter. But if I look back, I didn’t really know that was where I was going. But my songwriting in the earliest years, like from, you know, early teenage years and on was very introspective, it was very self focused. And I think over time, it’s become more and more communal. So I think I see the trajectory of, of my work as a songwriter as being more connected to community and wanting to collaborate with other people wanting to hear other voices, other input other instruments. And that’s where the joy really has been for me. So if I go back, I think, I don’t know if you can rush the process. You know, whatever your journey is, whatever your vocation is, it’s going to take what it takes to get through that formation, but I am really grateful that that it opens more communally. rather than more into isolation, so I’m not but I grew up in a big family too. So that was a huge gift. As I look back, just being around a lot of people having a lot of things going on having a lot of people with other opinions other needs. And I think that’s really the idea that that God gives us to be in a family with one another.

Collin Hansen
I love this. Love this quote from the book, you say, we truly are incomplete when we are independent, because we are made for community without an independent self, you can you withhold from your communities, the real and unique contributions that only you can offer, loved how you work together, the individual in the communal, now standard that you mentioned some of the arc of your career. And this book covers much of your catalogue. Are there songs from earlier stages of life, you can’t bring yourself to sing today. And I wonder what makes a song endure or not?

Sandra McCracken
Well, when when you go back, and they I think songs are like snapshots, and they kind of like taking a Polaroid of a moment. So there are some that you might want to keep in a box somewhere that you’re that you’re really proud of that you want to put on the fridge, you know, the mountaintop experiences are the ones that you put up on the fridge and I think is the same way for me with songs is because they’re so personal to me. And I’m not writing hypothetical situations most of the time. They they do kind of mark these different passages in time. And the question of what makes a song enduring is a really good one. If I knew the answer to that, probably save a lot of time wasting,

Collin Hansen
you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t have time to talk with me.

Sandra McCracken
I wouldn’t have any songs that you know, tucked away in a drawer somewhere. But I think I think some of that is a real mystery, because but I do think God Spirit moves within us even you know, yeah, because of God’s common grace. Like there’s something that when we make art, we are reflecting our Creator who makes art. And in that same way, I think some of those songs have a little more, a little more of the divine in them, and they just sort of hang on, you know, and they mark, they mark this passage of time that in a way that becomes more accessible no matter what time stamp you put on it.

Collin Hansen
So you anticipate that maybe some of the more communal music that you’ve been writing more recently, you can perhaps sing longer than some of the more introspective stuff from earlier.

Sandra McCracken
Yeah, I think some of the songs that are congregational singing, become shared songs, and then those travel further and they become personal to other people too, which is a real joy for me,

Collin Hansen
right? Christian music was a was a big part of my coming to faith at age 1519 97. And there was a lot lot going on in that era. Over the last 20 years, how have you seen Christian music around Nashville change? And what encourages you?

Sandra McCracken
Well, I, I think it’s changed. The industry itself has changed, like the mathematics of it. Because, you know, the way people listen to music has changed. So as those vehicles whether that’s like, you know, the radio, or tapes or CDs, or before that vinyl, which is now popular again, all these ways, yeah, they kind of reflect in different listening habits and different ways of experiencing music. So just from the nuts and bolts of it, that the industry side has had to change so much. And I’ve lived in Nashville, since around, you know, the mid 90s. And I have when I first moved here, there was Christian music was a category that sort of reflected the larger culture, but maybe, you know, its own kind of version of the larger culture of pop music. And then, and then it kind of moved starkly toward exclusively worship music. And then I think, at that time, people started listening more individually, both, you know, in headphones, or on Spotify, or on streaming platforms. So that’s really changed, what music is made and how we hear it.

Collin Hansen
What encourages you. I mean, there’s a lot of discouraging about that. It’s been very hard on artists and I lament, I mean, I’m not trying to pick a fight with somebody out there right now. But I definitely limit some of that shift toward exclusive worship. music that was frustrating to me still is, in some ways, and there’s a lot of good stuff that’s come out of that as well, but did seem stultifying, in some ways. But what encouragement is

Sandra McCracken
interesting. Yeah, I don’t know that there’s, I guess what I’ve seen is after that, it’s just after that time, when, when people started listening on digital, digital modes, you know, the I think there’s there’s there’s probably just as much worship music. There’s just as much of other everything else too. So you’re just not hearing it with one avenue. Like you’re not just hearing it on the radio that’s curated for us in the same way. But I don’t think there’s less worship music, which is the upside so there’s still A lot of creativity happening, there’s a way to find something that really suits your taste. And that can also bring scripture to life. Or they can sing the old hymns and new ways. You can go back to the traditional music in a way. I mean, so everything is out there at your fingertips. The challenge for me, it’s just like finding it in the party so much. Yeah. So there’s, there’s a lot of really great worship music that’s happening. And what I do see about that is that it’s happening more in local communities. So a lot of the things that we know is, you know, top of the church charts, the CCLI charts are things that are happening in touch with people in a particular place, and then they kind of explode out from there. So that’s really encouraging because it becomes very particular to, to people, right where we are,

Collin Hansen
yeah, part of the dynamics that make it harder for professional artists make it much easier for amateur artists. That’s true. Love Yeah. Now recently, a church music leader asked me about the trend of deconstruction and Christian musicians. If you’re speaking to a younger generation that wants to grow up and be you, how would you counsel them to hold fast in their faith?

Sandra McCracken
We have such a need for scripture, to to hold the Scripture it is to take it in to let the Spirit ministered to us in Scripture by memorization and just study. But the trouble with that is part of deconstruction is saying scripture isn’t really, you know, inerrant truth, and so you don’t have a shared place to stand. So I don’t have a good answer for that. I do think it is something that we are lamenting in the moment that we’re in. And I would say, because I do believe truth is knowable, truth is still holding, then I would say maybe finding those common places are the place where we can build and rebuild when there has been deconstruction. And maybe the common place is a table where you have a meal together. And that we can stay present with one another even past the fear and pass the doubt, I think about the story of Thomas when, after the resurrection when Jesus comes and meets with the disciples and Thomas really withdraws. It’s like he pulls back. And he doesn’t want to who knows what’s going on with him emotionally, but that, to me really mirrors this kind of posture of deconstruction is like I’m withdrawing. And the Scripture tells us that Jesus inclines toward him. So moving toward him and showing him the winds and pressing in and hit. He’s unwavering. Jesus is unwavering in his pursuit and love for Thomas. So I guess that’s where it is, is like trying to just be present, even in the doubt, because it’s scary to watch that and people that you love. And it’s scary to feel it when it’s within you, within your own heart and your own doubt. But I I don’t think it’s due in the history of the church, but it we’re experiencing a new wave of it.

Collin Hansen
No doubt about that. Now, what I’m thinking right here, Sandra is that hymns connect us to those who have gone before us to those whose shoulders we stand on. I do think that one of the antidotes to deconstruction is a sense of humility that comes recognizing that we’re not perfect, and we carry on and a perfect legacy in the gospel. But that’s been always carried by very imperfect people, our own family members, our own church members, our own heroes, in many ways. Now, but at least for me, I, I love what you’re saying here about hymns. It’s why I sing specifically hymns. Last night was crowned him with many crowns with my kids at bedtime, because I want to connect them to that past to show them a faith that’s, that’s bigger than themselves that bigger than their church and, and bigger even then, I mean, I don’t mind weaving some Sandra McCracken songs in there, you know, but I want to show them that it’s not just all in our lifetime, essentially. I’m wondering, do you do you think we still need more more hymns in the church? Or do you think that sufficient progress has been made? You know, from our friends like Kevin twit and others, over the last 20 years to declare truths in some of those worship?

Sandra McCracken
You know, the worship wars are still there. They’re still around here. And they’re, you know, culturally, I think we’re always experiencing some sort of evolution there. But I do think that God is has given us songs that connect us to our past, and he’s always making new songs. So I think it’s, it’s really important for the younger generation to continue to sing the old songs not just for sentimental value, but because they do take hold in our hearts and then we lean back on them when we You have times that we need to recall a shared memory, right? Like this is a collective memory of people of faith. And you’re absolutely right. The idea the entryway to all of this has to be humility. Because if we feel like we’re stepping outside of tradition, we’re stepping outside of what’s always been done, it really puts us in the center of the universe, and nobody can stand that kind of pressure. Like we’re not made to hold all that and to say, I’ll tell you what’s true. And I think when that happens, you start to I mean, it’s it’s so evident. If it’s not evident, when you’re in the middle of it’s definitely evident to people around you, then all of a sudden, you shift from a posture of humility to a posture of like condescending to others, right? Even if you’re saying, yeah, what to whatever you’re saying. So I think the old hams help us to walk in that humility and walk in the shared history that there have been people that have gone before us that have experienced very much what we are experiencing now. And so we’re, we’re comforted by that and weren’t encouraged and sometimes convicted.

Collin Hansen
Yeah, that’s true. Speaking of conviction, you read that solitude is a self portrait exercise. Sandra, what do you see when you’re alone?

Sandra McCracken
Well, I mentioned growing up in a big family and solitude was not intuitive for me, I just, it took me a while in my adult life to really appreciate how, how many gifts kind of come out of that time. And I realized I’m so porous to the voices and the things going on around me that it really takes some solitude for me to get quiet and hear from God in reading the Scripture, even by myself. So yeah, so I think solitude is a practice, I’ve learned to really enjoy and appreciate in a way, but it didn’t come natural, because a lot of things, a lot of times you get quiet, and it takes some practice, because at first, it’s really uncomfortable. And either your mind wanders, and you’re just stressed out about all the other things that are on your to do list. And to get past that point in into a deeper solitude, sometimes being outside helps for me, but those practices have really helped me to get to a place of even writing this book. You know, I couldn’t have done that. If I didn’t have times of solitude.

Collin Hansen
I mean, I think of I think of writers at solitude, I think of painters and sculptors and solitude. I don’t usually think of musicians that way. I mean, I’m thinking about tour buses and jam sessions and, and things like that. Is it harder for musicians?

Sandra McCracken
Maybe it’s just a, that is a good? That’s a good question. I think it’s probably a matter of finding, finding both, you know, finding ways to connect to other people, but also that you’re drawing from a deeper well, and I think that’s more of a human like we all we all need solitude. And if we nurture that I think it affects what we do in collaborations because you can bring yourself more fully to a collaboration, if you have kind of reckoned with your own thoughts and ideas and convictions.

Collin Hansen
No, this line really stood out to me and probably could have ref could have referenced our earlier conversations about some of the dynamics in Nashville. But what do you mean, when you write that as a songwriter you strain to break free from the confines of consumerism,

Sandra McCracken
on a practical level is helpful if you’re making something whatever kind of art you’re making, to, to know or to have in mind, who you’re talking to, like to have in mind who this song is for who you might be wanting to connect with on the other side of that piece of, of art that you’re making. But the downside of that is, if you think too far ahead, and there’s the sense of like, oh, well, is this saying, well, can everybody understand this? Can this be something that would be at the top of the charts, right? If your mind goes there too early, it will dilute the impact of your work, because it’s not bad to think about those things to think about accessibility or to think about the practical side of the the marketing part where it’s like, okay, well, what if you want to connect with people and you don’t just want to like sing songs in your own studio bedroom? You know, there is a practical side of that, and it’s not a bad thing to consider. But I think, you know, staying in that introspective space and being able to really craft what you want to say, I think can bring something more beautiful to the table and give you something to actually share now

Collin Hansen
your book. I mean, there’s there’s a lot of memoir aspects to this. I mean, that’s part of your, your gifting as a songwriter as well, of course, and, and a lot of us can relate to these things. And, you know, you’ve had your own circumstances that you’ve walked through in the last decade, we all have our own circumstances that we’ve walked through just some of that darkness that you’ve experienced, that you talk about in general terms in this book, you know, that God’s light has shone upon, how has that changed the trajectory of your career and an outlook as an as an artist.

Sandra McCracken
You know, in the middle of the book, we sort of talk, I talk about the, the idea that your identity is tested. At some point, inevitably that you walk through, we all walk through things that that are either like a wilderness or a fog of sorts. And I think for me, the some of the changes and challenges that I’ve experienced in the last 10 years have, when I look back at them, I think at the time, this is not something I would have asked for. And this is not something that I really even knew or had the resources to respond to. And yet in those places where we’re weak, we see God’s provision. And I look at that even artistically that God meets us in those places, and he pours out His Spirit. And if you’ve ever, like walked with a friend who’s in physical illness or something, and you’re not the one suffering and you’re standing beside them, you think I can’t imagine what they’re enduring right now. But yeah, you watch the God gives them special grace for the time and for the season that they’re in and what they’re walking through. And he attends to see, you know, the Psalm, say, like, the Lord is close to the brokenhearted. And I think there’s evidence of that when I look around in my my own community, and there’s evidence when I look back in my own songwriting, that at the times that I’ve felt like walking through seasons of pain, I have also seen beauty emerge from that, and that God restores that, and he brings so much even like nourishment is like piped through those broken places, you know, to restore and to bring things that we wouldn’t have inversely, we would not have also asked for the beauty that emerges.

Collin Hansen
Well, like I said, Everybody’s circumstances are different. But and when you’re, you’re writing songs, you’re writing books, you’re writing about your own experience, but a lot of people can, can relate to that, especially when you make yourself vulnerable and open to the Lord’s work in that and you write in the book about how you asked God for mercy as he walked through a confusing darkness. And he observed that Christians don’t talk very much about endings, at least compared to forgiveness, law, talk about forgiveness, not a lot of talk about endings. How did you? How did you learn to end well, and move on?

Sandra McCracken
I’m certainly still learning. You know, letting go is a really hard thing. You mentioned your kids and singing with them. I think parenting has been one of those places where you realize it is just this constant, learning to let go a little bit more and a little bit more, and the relationship changes. And I think in that way, there’s a season that was that is not continuing, you know, and there’s a natural ending, or there’s like, when we lose, I remember moving from my parents house to move to go to college, and how jarring that was and how disorienting and yet, and yet, it has to happen, because otherwise, I would still be living there, I’d still be I think there’s a sense that we can learn to accept it and embrace it and, and so learning about endings has been a hard thing for me, I’ve really, I’ve certainly resisted it, and is probably one of the places of the most like growth and inspiration.

Collin Hansen
Oh, beautiful. Couple lines. I just want to make sure people get from the book here. Related to that question. You’re right that if you’ve ever been grievously sinned against or seen firsthand the betrayal and abuse of someone you love, then you can know Him that is God in the acute pain more fully, as you see how he sets himself against evil and oppression. And I love to this also, just in conclusion, a little bit of a longer one. I want to read for people here you say, I will not apologize for God’s mysterious providence. Knowing that often in suffering God is doing his most beautiful work. But I will affirm that there are ongoing sorrows that need mending. They need attention and care and healing that only God can provide. The more we know ourselves to be weak. The more we recognize how mighty our savior is how eager he is to break into darkness with his light. I have been shaped by my sorrows but also by the sorrows of my friends. And there’s something that in this that binds us together. What we share is the light of hope. Loved that Sandra Sandra McCracken has been my guest on gospel bound her new book, send out your light the illuminating power of Scripture and song published by b&h Sandra got final three questions for you. Okay, okay. All right, rapid fire here. How do you find calm in the storm?

Sandra McCracken
Well, starting the day out with a rhythm with like some quiet and a good cup of coffee.

Collin Hansen
Good. It’s a good place to start. And where do you find good news today?

Sandra McCracken
Good news is actually as spring as emerging just working in the yard and making something literally in the dirt that as I think is a place where…

Collin Hansen
Do songs come to you lyrics come to you when you’re doing that kind of work. I mean, what are they most likely to come to you?

Sandra McCracken
Songs mostly come out of reading. And the more I’m reading the more is like kind of starts bouncing around in me song ideas.

Collin Hansen
Okay, I like that. Last one. Speaking of which, what’s the last great book you’ve read?

Sandra McCracken
Oh, I have registered for the second time art and faith by Maka. Fujimura.

Collin Hansen
Okay, very good, very relevant one on my shelf. You’re giving me a pitch why I need to. I need to follow through with that one.

Sandra McCracken
Yeah, well, it’s some of the things we’ve been talking about today. Even just he talks about how broken things are mended and how God he moves in close and out of those broken things is where the beauty emerges. And of course, he does that through visual art and consumer view, which is that practice of broken pottery that’s restored with gold and all these very tangible images that helped me to connect those ideas.

Collin Hansen
Okay, I’ll check it out. Help listeners the checkout Sandra’s book, send out your light, the illuminating power of Scripture and song. Keep writing Sandra, your music your books. We really appreciate you. Thanks.

Sandra McCracken
Thank you so much, Colin.