Get Over Yourself

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Collin Hansen
Do I exist for God? Or does God exist? For me? That’s the question that I think animates Dean Inserra new book Getting over yourself. Trading, believe in yourself religion for Christ centered Christianity, published by moody, one hour, maybe it’s this line in the book, we can’t make Christianity cooler. Dan explains his argument this way, quote, the entire premise of this book is that spiritual victory and earthly victory are not synonymous. He identifies a new kind of prosperity gospel that promises earthly success along with spiritual abundance. But he can find no such Christianity in the Bible. Dean serves as founding pastor of City Church in Tallahassee, Florida. And I thought this description explains what I appreciate about his book Dean writes, In the therapeutic society, the achievement of self fulfillment with God’s apparent stamp of approval is the perfect recipe for Christians to desire the things of this world while still feeling as if they are close to Jesus. And he is very pleased it appeases our need to know God isn’t mad at us, while giving us license to continue on making much of ourselves. So what’s the alternative? Dean says, I want to win people with a message that would still apply if my church was in a third world country, meeting in secret with nothing more than a single shared Bible, the message of Jesus Christ crucified, risen and ascended. It’s a perfect fit for this program gospel bound, and he joins me now to discuss the divide between seminary classrooms, and popular Christianity, Instagram as instigator in crisis counseling, and why he doesn’t think God wants us to be happy. Dean, thank you for joining me. Thanks calling a longtime listener of gospel bound. And I’m really honored to be a part of part of the show today for the program. Part of the program. I Dean, well, how would you? How would you sort of date the trend that you’re describing? Is this a recent shift you’ve seen in preaching toward God as a gateway to our own delights in dreams or just something that goes back centuries? Or, I mean, hey, even to the Garden of Eden,

Dean Inserra
I do believe it ultimately goes back to the Garden of Eden, you know, where Eve believed the lie that she could go around God for all the things she was looking for, rather than write to him. But in terms of the the mainstream non fringe Christian messaging, I think it’s very new. I think that Instagram and as social media has increased, that this messaging has become all the more popular, I call the Instagram vacation of the face, and pastoring a church with a lot of college students, and a lot of young adults. And then I’m 40 a lot of people my age as well, I’m seeing this messaging infiltrate into every area of their lives all under the banner of Christianity.

Collin Hansen
Dare I ask you what the Tick Tok-ification of Christianity would be?

Dean Inserra
This would be in that same realm, probably a little more extreme.

Like seeing the full effect. That’s the next book, maybe.

Collin Hansen
We’re just making up terms here. Describe the disparity that you see between seminary classrooms, and popular Christianity. You just mentioned it right there. You spent a lot of time pastoring young adults college students. Yeah. What is that? What was that? What’s that disparity?

Dean Inserra
Well, they’re much more aware of what I call these new prosperity preachers. And again, the what I call the old prosperity gospel still exists clearly, but it’s gonna be really dismissed as being very fringe. And that’s the messaging of God wants you to be healthy and wealthy, you know, late night TV televangelists kind of preachers that can be dismissed pretty quickly, of course, people still sadly gravitate towards it. But again, it’s its own little category. This new prosperity gospel is very savvy, very cool. That’s very hip. It’s very social media savvy. And it’s really the opposite of friend just become very mainstream. And it’s that self help message that God wants you to basically reach your potential, like your personal potential and ambitions in life, and how it’s different than the seminary world is, I think a lot of maybe the people that you and I look to for theology for doctrine for commentary, that obviously are gospel centered people that are preaching the truth, communicating the truth that I’m really blessed, a generation of pastors and Christian leaders. These are people that this generation they have absolutely no idea who these guys are. I don’t mean that disrespectfully, but a lot of who our heroes might be. These not only immediate, not just heroes, that might be the wrong word. Just our mentors, the people we look towards and respect. This generation doesn’t know them, the pastors their listening to seem to have over a million Instagram followers that are all over YouTube. So there’s really a disconnect between who we are looking to, and who we have been trained by, and who people in many congregations around America are actually listening to, and are being trained by without even realizing they’re being trained.

Collin Hansen
So is it sounds a little bit like a soundbite type Christianity or what you can fit in a graphic? A quote, graphic on Instagram? Is that spiritually satisfying, what are people looking for that makes them just just draws them to that.

Dean Inserra
I think it’s spiritually satisfying in the moment, then you have to find the next graphic, the next power quote, the next inspiration, the next service, the next meme. And what it’s drawing, what allows them to be drawn towards so towards it is that it gives them you know, enough of Jesus to feel like they’re Christian, and I’m so in air quotes in the air, but not so much what interferes with anything. So it allows you to go full speed ahead for whatever worldly ambition or desire you might have, and do it under the banner of the Christian faith. So again, we’re not going to work through texts, we’re not going to have any type of theology, we’re just going to say things like God wants to take your setback and turn it into a comeback. So that’s how they would approach suffering, rather than talking about how God is going to use suffering, to point us to sovereignty to make us more like Christ to increase our faith. Instead, God wants to use those kinds of things in your life to set you up for something big. So there’s got language in there, he talked about faith, you use that kind of language. So it sounds kosher, when really it’s just this worldly sort of marketing attached to God’s name.

Collin Hansen
Is it’s just kind of like Joel Osteen stuff, or is it different somehow from what Joel Osteen has been doing for decades.

Dean Inserra
So I’m glad you asked that. Because I think I’ve done so much research on this because I’m just as I wrote the book, and I’m just so interested in it, and because I really feel a burden towards it, because I’m seeing so many people gravitate towards it. And in the world I’m in which is kind of just like street level, you know, carrying out the Christian faith locally through the church. I just see it everywhere. So I’m glad you brought those things. I think O’Steen is the bridge between the old prosperity gospel and the new prosperity gospel. Okay, though, some of the same messaging as the old prosperity gospel, but he comes across much more polished, kind of more, I guess you said their services or are more excellent to use that word in terms of the production and those type of things. And his messaging like a Your Best Life Now live your best life, that type of thing. It resonates more with a new prosperity gospel while he still holds some of the fundamentals of the old prosperity gospel. So I think posting is the bridge. Oh, he mean, literally was right with his own father. Oh, yeah. And his church. I mean, his father was a far more overt old school prosperity preacher, if I remember correctly, it was it was. And I think I was seen as kind of who we can thank for making all this possible. Okay. It’s like Ray said. So it’s an entire generation of younger preachers and other Christian influencers, who have seen that and then adopted that, especially for new social media, that’d be a good way to describe. And this should be real frank about it, I would say they took the OC messaging and made it less cheesy.

Okay, more cool, made it more hip and maybe put a little, just kind of wordsmith things a little bit better. And therefore, it’s really, it’s pretty genius marketing. That’s what a lot of this really is calling it, it really comes down to just marketing the faith in a way that allows you to be really noncontroversial with people to never offend anyone, and allow folks to walk out of a church or to move on to the next Instagram slide, feeling not as good about their faith, but good about you. Because you’re the one who inspired them to achieve greatness in their life.

Collin Hansen
Well, this next question is gonna sound I guess, like a pretty easy setup here. But I mean, it genuinely is it? Is it possible to have Jesus and the career and the finances and the body and the influence of the elite, or just following Jesus require we forsake some or all of this package?

Dean Inserra
I think it’s definitely possible. And I do know believers who I would say had the things they’ve always dreamed of in their lives with professional baseball players that that I know, are people who own their own business or do or even stay at home moms or that people that have been doing what they always wanted to do with their life. So I definitely think that can be consistent with the Christian faith. But it’s also non coincidental that Jesus in the Scriptures warn us over and over again, about what that can do to us. You know that one of the most misquoted verses in the Bible as people like to say money is the root of all evil. It’s like that’s not the Bible says, The love of money is the root of all evil. So I think that that warning is there for a reason when to be very careful of it, but I think we’re unconcerned is what if those things were taken away? Or what if those dreams weren’t achieved, because most people are going to live pretty mundane and basic lives by the standards of this world. And in this new prosperity gospel, it’s kind of self help potential realize Christianity. Those are kind of the bad words like settling, mundane, basic average, those are the most like the curse words of the new prosperity gospel. And what they would say is you’re settling for less than God’s best for you. What they mean by God’s best is your personal success, your dreams being fulfilled your happiness in the moment. So where it gets complicated, is a lot of how people would allow their faith to be worked out in these areas would not be able to work if they were placed in a different economic context, a different world contexts live in a different country even. And I can’t see that as actually a Biblical faith, one that’s very dependent upon a circumstances being a certain way in order to thrive and flourish.

Collin Hansen
Is that old health and wealth message of late night Christian television, is that still going strong? Or has this kind of subsumed that what? What’s the latest update there?

Dean Inserra
Well, I continue to hear that it’s gaining traction around the world. I’m hearing that there’s many churches in Africa who are who are grabbing on to that, which is unfortunate. Thankfully, we have very faithful missionaries there as well. But it’s still there some but I think that people can have this new prosperity gospel and not be embarrassed by it. So they might want some of the communication some of the truth and air quotes that’s communicated by the old prosperity gospel, but they want to it to be hip cool, trendy, they want to still you know, be, it’d be attractive and be something you shouldn’t be embarrassed about sharing online, because online is where a lot of it is fully filtered out is where it’s really communicated what’s really expressed. So I think it’s still there. But it’s just this generation wants something that is far less embarrassing, because really, they want to make Christianity Cool.

Collin Hansen
Well, now contrary to that, you describe Christianity as feeling like fish out of water in this life. So give me an example of the different dreams, different goals, different desires, Christians should have. And I’m asking you to be specific here, because about even some of the decisions that church goers make that that you think we’ve gone too far.

Dean Inserra
You know, I worry that for some people, they would not be able to have a worship service with a local church where they were satisfied, if they moved to a town that didn’t have a full speed, bells and whistles, Ted Talk like professional communicators skills, kind of pastor that they wouldn’t be able to actually function and be a part of a local church at this experience, they love that word experience has to be a 10 out of 10 on the scale, in order for someone to be able, they would say to experience God or to feel connected or to be fed, or whatever kind of language they might use, that’s really concerning, especially as, as we see people that are even going further away from church and having church online and instead, so now I can just go to my favorite communicator, as they would call it, or I can just listen to my favorite worship music over here and be disconnected from a church because the church in my town is isn’t good enough, or the 47 churches in your town aren’t good enough. And by that it’s really about style and skill and personality, rather than actually content in the hearts of the believers. So what do I have some goals to be for just my own life, I want to look in the mirror first. But I want to see the mundane things and the basic things of life, as the areas where God is growing me as as the areas where faithfulness actually occurs. So I know it’s cliche to say, Oh, we want faithfulness over fruitfulness. Well, I want to see both happen in my life. I wanted to be faithful to the Scriptures, and to God’s calling upon my life in terms of how he’s placed me as a husband, as a father, as a pastor, as a friend. And also I want to be fruitful in that faithfulness towards the Great Commission. I want that to be the goal. So when people say things, it’s really common to hear them say, God wants us to dream god sighs dreams. And that’s very popular language, the new prosperity gospel, but by that it often means you achieving something amazing, you know, big stage, you know, New York City best internship, you know, best job, when if we’re going to say that God wants us to dream big God dreams, I don’t really see that it’s disconnected from the Great Commission. But like the dream, if God has a dream for his people, I think it’s to be conformed to the image of Christ. Because that’s what he’s working things together for our good for those who love Him to make us more like Jesus. And after that, I would say it’s the Great Commission, like like, those are God, the God sized dreams that he has for us. And so to answer your question, specifically, I want those goals to be enough for me. Now, I mean, in saying I’m there because I’m influenced by the world all the time, like probably any American Christian is, that doesn’t make it okay. It’s just a constant barrier in my life to these things being fulfilled. But I want those two realities to be dream reaching for me too. I’m faithful to Christ, I’m being conformed to His image. And at the same time, I’m being fruitful and faithful in what God’s called me to in the Great Commission in the context where he’s sent me but I want that to be enough for me. And what I worry about in this new prosperity gospel is there’s no way that can be enough for anyone. Because that’s considered against settling unless it’s done on this huge, massive big scale. And only so many people actually can achieve a big, huge, massive scale in terms of influence in their life, a very small amount of people. So I worry that this message isn’t for everyone and turns to how it’s going to be played out.

Collin Hansen
So Dean, why don’t you think God wants us to be happy?

Dean Inserra
I think God wants us to be happy in him. And I think that has to be communicated over and over again, I can’t find anywhere in the scriptures. God wants us to be happy by the standards of this world, and to find our happiness and the things that are perishing. So I don’t think God wants us to be happy in the context of how the world defines happy. I do believe that God wants us to have joy, I believe that God wants us to not by the lie that there’s more to be gained by disobeying Him there is to be gained by obeying Him or that to go around him the things I’m looking for, you know, even the moment I don’t even the moment would have said that fruit from that tree, that’s gonna make me happy. And that fruit from that tree, it still plays out in our lives. Let’s thinking I need this. And I like to compare it to Juicy Fruit gum, you know, Juicy Fruit gum in the yellow package with a piece of juicy fruit gum, put it in your mouth, it is the best taste you’ve ever had for about three seconds, or 30 seconds that it totally goes away. And it’s done. God doesn’t want us to see it. We’ll talk about not settling. God doesn’t want us to settle for the Juicy Fruit gum of this world. That’s what I tell our church all the time. So what you think makes you happy is really oftentimes the world with a big billboard saying run to me instead of running to the Lord. And that’s not a happiness that that God by any means. would define as right for his people.

Collin Hansen
We’re, we’re talking with Dean Inserra here and talking about getting over yourself. Trading, believe in yourself religion for Christ centered Christianity. This really stood out to me, Dean, explain how you use Instagram in marriage crisis counseling.

Dean Inserra
It’s been the big warning sign for me, where I follow up on Instagram, I enjoy social media, I have fun with it. And Instagram is very local. For me. We’re Twitter’s kind of like more of outside of Tallahassee, you connect to pastors in life, Instagram is really where I can communicate local. So I’m going to scroll through, see what’s going on. And we oftentimes from scrolling through, and then you notice a pattern for a certain individual that you know, that’s in your church family that’s in your neighborhood, whatever it might be. And all of a sudden, I see these pictures, where it’s always this selfie. And every single post is about wellness. And the person’s looking either really ripped, or really pretty or attractive all the time. And, and their spouse randomly is never in the pictures. And I start going, Oh, no, these are warning signs. I’ll tell my wife put the red flag on this person because it should go why? And I’ll say Instagram, it’ll go Oh, no. And she’ll start scrolling through and agree with me. So one time I had someone come to me, and I had been realizing on Instagram that things were bad. And I didn’t know this guy very well. I knew his wife much better. And he just reached out to me randomly, kind of marginally church that best. And he wanted to meet with me. And I knew exactly what I was going to be about. I told my wife, I guarantee you it’s about his marriage. And she goes, How do you? Did he tell you that? I said, No. I’ve been watching Instagram. So he shows up and sits down in the office. And I said to him, reward work for he said, hey, thanks so much for he can tell he was nervous. He said, thanks so much for meeting with me. And I said, Hey, before we go any further is this about and I named his wife.

And he looked at me and he said, How did you know that? And I said, this is gonna sound really strange. And I’m probably not stalking you. But just from us following each other on Instagram, like I realized that something’s going on. And what’s happening is that in this Don’t settle for less than God’s best for you kind of mindset. What that means is anything doesn’t make me happy in the moment. So we’re seeing people that are starting to believe that the person responsible for their life being mundane and basic, is their spouse. So in marriage counseling, I’ll sit down with this individual these people’s happens all the time. And they will say things to they’ll never say a bad word about their spouse. They’ll say he’s a great guy. She’s a great mom, great husband, great dad, but we just got married too young, or I just never had a chance to really find myself or what if God always God in faith language? What if God has something better, someone better out there for me? You know, God just wants us to be happy. And really where it started was seeing other friends on Instagram who maybe recently divorced or separated and they’re posting pictures having a good time to kind of live in the halfway single life and I’d say don’t have the kids they’re out doing the deal now at 40 years old when you’re at home doing laundry and cooking dinner every night and having to work to run home from work and go to this and that and the new again, the new prosper I want to be fair, the new prosperity gospel would never say outright Hey, you go and leave your spouse Okay. Say that. But the messaging continues to influence people that anything in my life that’s

holding me down for achieving my happiness. God doesn’t want that in my life. And where does it oftentimes hit closest to home literally in the home with your spouse. And right now most of the conversations I’m having with marginally church people that would claim to be Christians that are having marriage crisis. It’s not about finances. It’s not about adultery. It’s not about a pornography addiction. It’s not about in laws. It’s about this sort of midlife crisis happening a little bit earlier, that now is being done in Jesus’s name that God just wants me to be happy. And right now, I’m not happy because life’s boring.

Collin Hansen
So if I suddenly saw you on Instagram, Dean, and you had lost 75 pounds, and you were all booked up, should I be worried about you? Yes.

Dean Inserra
It was someone’s do have the sake of health. Wonderful, right? That that’s that often that does happen, of course. And we should think that’s great. But when it becomes an obsession, and everything’s about wellness, wellness, wellness, I go, Oh, no, something’s going on there. It’s almost like clockwork, it’s it’s like an undefeated theory. That it’s that it’s happening. So yes, sound the alarm that happens?

Collin Hansen
Well, I think this next question is related, and how does pop Christianity set up its followers for faith crisis?

Dean Inserra
I think it’s inevitable. And I don’t think we’ve even seen the full results of it yet, because it still is very new. Because what’s happening is we’re assigning promises to God that he’s never actually made, that he exists for us to reach our potential to find our destiny to be happy to do this, and that, and what happens if those things don’t take place? I think the same thing we’ve seen happen in people that have come out of the old prosperity gospel, where they were told that God was going to heal them from their disease, they just had enough faith. And that didn’t actually happen. So therefore, where’s God. And I think that’s the what is going to happen in the new prosperity gospel, but it’s not going to be about health and wealth. Instead, it’s going to be about dreams, potential life phase, those type of things, and it’s the same exact story is going to take place. Unfortunately, that’s all we have to get our hands around this. And people have to understand and know what’s happening. This thing is massive. And it’s very popular. And it’s very, it’s very common for people to say, I’m so hopeful for the next generation, because they’re serious about the gospel, and they want to make a change, and yes, and amen. But that’s still not the majority. The majority are in this new just watch Instagram, millions of followers look at these conferences, they put on filling arenas over and over again. And every sadly, T 4g As much as I love that conference, it will be there for the final one, that that might be the driving influencing conference of our tribe of seminary students and pastors, it is not the driving force in terms of influence when it comes to people in the pews. And that’s It’s realizing and get our hands around.

Collin Hansen
So for somebody listening to this who’s understandably alarmed, are, are there certain authors or books? I mean, I don’t want you have to go through a name a bunch of names, but like, what should somebody do with this? If they find out that their child off at college is reading these books, or going to this conference, or listening to this music? Should they be worried about something like that? Are there warning signs or just, again, watch Instagram and see what kind of quotes come up there? Or would you recommend to somebody

Dean Inserra
I say definitely watch Instagram, it’s very important. But also, if you’re in a college context, I think the most important decisions you can possibly make in terms of where you’re going to go to school is that there’s a gospel centered church and that community you can be a part of, I mean, thank God for some great campus ministries, but also to be anchored to a church. So I want to be far less worried. If somebody shows up on campus and plugs into a great church in that community, I would be far less worried because they’re gonna be getting fed the community they’re gonna have, like, that kind of messaging is not happening in college ministry at our church. If some some came in with that already, we were able to steer him away from it. But you know, you see, what’s a girl wash your face? I mean, so millions of times, right? I mean, that we have to pay attention that what’s happening with with Jen Hatmaker. I think that what’s happening at Elevation Church out of Charlotte, I think, is one of the the main torch carriers for this. And I’m not being disparaging, I’m just saying, Hey, this is what they communicate. And I’d say that that’s this is just reality. And I think these are sort of the bell ringers of this new messaging. And again, really suck you in because I’m not going to say anything, aren’t Christians. I’m not claiming I’m not saying they’re not believers. I don’t want to be unfair. But the messaging can really suck you in. Because it sounds so right on the surface, that you think it’s okay. Because Jesus Bible god, you see, like, you see people claiming their lives have been changed. You go, this must be okay. Or the famous line, look at all these people, they must be doing something, right. So we think because there’s a crowd, it must mean that there’s true conviction, and that’s where we can get sideways.

Collin Hansen
I mean, I suppose there’s a spectrum here, right? So would you put Bethel reading in this category two,

Dean Inserra
I think that they can influence because of their music that that crowd but I think they’re almost like their own fringe, like kind of own category of this sort of new Pentecostal. was more than these these, there’ll be a little. If he got into Bethel like deep dive beyond the music into Bethel, you would see that they’re more fringe than they are mainstream. The music’s kind of their, their skins, I guess. Yeah. Well, and I would I would think one of the most influential churches here, where I live in Birmingham Church of the highlands would probably have some of this overlap, but probably some not. Yes, some other ways. Yeah. That’d be fair. Yeah, I think there’s something kind of walk the line, you can kind of dip their toe into it, they’re still going to preach Jesus. And ultimately, I think if we sat down with them and said, Okay, here’s 10, things that are really important that they would go, Yeah, we affirm all those 10 things. But what’s happening is when pragmatism is, is really the banner, which you function under, then that’s going to be what makes every decision. So it’s more a lot of these churches doing what they do preach, even though it can’t be problematic. It’s what they don’t. And they’re not going to go certain places, because the name of the game is big, huge crowd, great experience. And they’ll do it under the guise of unchurched people, we care about church people, when I’m the person that believes I care about unchurched people so much, I’m gonna talk to him about sin and repentance and grace in Christ.

Collin Hansen
Yeah, well, I just think, you know, your book does not go and talk about names. And I think that’s, I think that’s a wise choice. But I did want to follow up because I can imagine somebody being very alarmed listening to this and just wondering, who exactly does he have in mind there and when you’re talking about Hollis or hatmaker, or we could do a number of different names there. We’ve done a lot of those reviews at the gospel coalition, because we’ve recognized a lot of the same challenges there. And that’s, I mean, I’ve been being in a community that’s very much influenced by Highlands, which is one of the largest churches in the country. I’ve just experienced people all over the map at that church. And so that’s another thing that can be so tricky here is that somebody can have a life transforming experience of, of confronting their sin and repenting and walking and newness of life. And then somebody else can use this as a cover for superficiality. I think that’s part of what happens in large churches in general, and especially super large, popular churches. But I think it’s just wise to have discernment. And I would say even Dean, my, my own church, fairly large, even megachurch category, lots of young people, there was a time when I was stopping, and I was thinking, Hmm, I think somebody could come in and hear what we are preaching. And because the world is so influenced by this therapeutic language, they could simply adopt what we’re saying, in there without being properly confronted. But of course, we also do serial exposition, and that will guide you through certain things. And then all of a sudden, you’re in a passage that’s talking about sexual issues. And now all of a sudden, you’re confronting a lot of the idolatries and sins that younger people are struggling with, or else that they’re seeing in the culture, and then all of a sudden, you’re like, oh, okay, so part of it simply mean, I guess I’m setting you up for this, but would part of this simply be a willingness for a church to preach the whole counsel of God,

Dean Inserra
That’d be a major part of it. And it usually kind of rotates around just a few things, the messaging, and they kind of cycle back and it’s that kind of come back into your setback into a comeback potential, you know, step out in faith, you know, God wants you to, you know, knock down the barriers and go and achieve, and the whole counsel of God is definitely not preach. And it’s just concerning, because we’re, what the old the old thing people say, the old saying, what you win them with you win them, right. So if you win someone with a new prosperity gospel, you’re gonna win them to that kind of faith. But that’s how they view God that’s, that’d be the Christian life. And I think that we have to pay attention. And we have to be willing to have hard conversations, and even in the right appropriate context, name names, to protect the sheep from that type of mindset.

Collin Hansen
And that is why we’ve we’ve done that in terms of reviews. Because especially when, and I think one thing that’s surprising is it usually hits a level when a bunch of people in my church are suddenly talking about a book like that. And I’m thinking, oh, wait a minute, like a girl wash your face or something. I’m thinking, Oh, well, that can’t be good. Because they should definitely know better than that. But then you realize how, how consistent that is, with so much of the marketing messaging that we hear that dominates in our lives, that it’s just difficult for Christians as well, I think in many ways, which is why your book is helpful. Now, you alluded to this earlier, but you said you don’t think we we’ve seen the extent of this new prosperity gospel. So and what is next then? I mean, maybe it’s that faith crisis you talked about, but what else? I think eventually it’s going to have to lead to people being detached from churches, as I alluded to earlier, because churches just never going to be good enough. And by that it means experience. Music, they’re going to be good enough pastors ever going to be funny enough or clear enough or are inspirational enough? And I think that’s a big thing coming to is I’ll just kind of watch some clips online and call that church, I think we’re gonna see that take place as a result minus the faith crisis, we’re gonna see that as well.

Yeah. Now that makes sense that, that this movement was going plenty strong before COVID. But it does appear that that would be a natural segue into what’s next of Wait a minute, I just I don’t need I don’t need the building at all. I can just experience this at home. And I don’t need this to be Sunday. I don’t need to be congregational I can just do this, myself at my leisure. And so basically mean sort of like a hyper podcast version of this. We’ve seen this with podcasting. But now I can see this kind of fully leading outside the church altogether. Now, last question I have here before we do our final three here with Dean and Sarah, do you really pray for willingness to be marginalized?

Dean Inserra
Not enough. I mean, that’s, that’s a scary prayer.

Yeah, but I’ve had to kind of deal with it. I mean, in town, I mean, we’re in it, we’re in a very progressive town. So to just preach something as clear in the Bible, as sexual ethics is going to marginalize you in this community where I live, a very secular town, a large university town. So it’s almost like, if I pray for it, or if I’m not praying for as much as I should, it’s happening in front of my eyes. It’s just based on what we believe about the Scripture. So locally, I mean, it’s interesting, because we can be viewed as these like raging fundamentalists simply because, you know, we just hold the certain truths of the scriptures, but not just hold to them. Talk about that.

Collin Hansen
Right? Well, now that’s the key, because that’s the difference. You would probably agree that a lot of these churches, not all of them, but a lot of the churches on paper. Now, we’ve seen with with hatmaker, and others, we’ve seen changes there. But some of the churches you’re describing on paper, they would agree with us on these things. Yeah. But they don’t talk about them.

Dean Inserra
Yeah, we had someone from our church, who went into a same sex relationship and left the church because of it when it was ever a member just came regularly. And I knew her enough to you know, I’ve talked to her and I’d see her in coffee shops and things of that. And I did not know all this had happened. So I ran into her. And I said, Hey, I haven’t seen you in a month. So what happens? And she says, Oh, well, you know, she’s really frank. Well, I’m in a same sex relationship right now. I know that you’re in non affirming church. So I went to and she named the church in town. And I said, I started I didn’t mean to, I started giggling a little bit. And I said, you know that they hold to the exact same things that we hope to concerning this, and which is true, but they never talked about it never talks like in front of the pastor over I said, Hey, man, I told the story, because all we talk about in our membership meeting, I’m like, Get out of here.

You have same sex relationship, I want people that are in same sex place, that’s cool to hear the truth of God’s word and to hear God’s love, and God’s design and God’s plan for them. But if you can be in a same sex relationship, and sit in a church for that long period of time, and have no idea what they believe about marriage. I’ve got all kinds of problems with that.

Collin Hansen
Given how Frank the Bible is on these topics, and given the cultural situation, it’s going to be something that’s fairly hard to avoid. Whether you’re in the Old Testament, whether you’re preaching through, through the Gospels, whether you’re preaching through Paul’s epistles, Peter, I mean, it, it’s going to be very difficult to avoid. But I guess that’s the point is, if we’re truly Protestant, then we are under the authority of God’s word. But what we’ve seen is a real pick and choose attitude, and be able to withstand, because eventually they’re going to have to answer the question. Yeah, well, I think I think you, you and I could probably name some other names of large, influential churches and communicators where we’re, that’s, that’s coming. It’s coming sooner or later. Though, I do think that the path forward now appears to be in many of those cases, to shift without ever announcing a shift, and then sort of just waking up one day and saying, Oh, well, yeah, we made that decision a long time ago. Oh, you didn’t know. Well, I mean, yeah. So there that’s one of the things that’s can be very deceptive. But that’s why your book is helpful, because we’re not looking to just sort of evaluate people by by a sheet we’re looking to say, are you preaching something that is for all time and all places that’s focused on Christ and everything he taught everything he commanded for us so again, I appreciate that so much about your book Getting over yourself trading Believe in yourself religion, For Christ centered Christianity got final three with Dean and Sarah. Dean, how do you find calm in the storm?

Dean Inserra
For me, it truly is. This sounds like such a pastor. It really is the my local church. I’m a huge local church guy. I’m an advocate unapologetically for the local church being God’s design God’s plan a for his people. And that really, for me is the place and not just a Sunday gathering with the people and just being when I walk into the physical doors have City Church in Tallahassee, often in a living room with people from City Church of Tallahassee, that honestly is where it happens for me like that. That is the most life giving area of my life apart from my own family, and my house is City Church and that membership, congregation.

Collin Hansen
That’s very encouraging real from a pastor, especially these days.

Dean, where do you find good news today?

Dean Inserra
Twitter? No, I’m just kidding.

Collin Hansen
First person to ever answer it that way.

Dean Inserra
You know, people hate group chats or big group chats are like the worst thing. That is where I find that so much of like, the question you just asked is in like minded pastor grip, just just to hear about normal people in normal places, going through the same things I’m going through seeing God work. And just to hear, I think he’s kind of running despite, like many listeners do these like running group texts. I have a BA from 11, with pastors, and let me tell you what that is just so lifegiving seeing friends in Texas and friends in Tennessee and, and all over the country. They’re just seeing God work and real things happen. And that really, for me, I just, that’s how I stay connected to these guys. And I’m just really thankful for that. That’s been a biggie for me.

Collin Hansen
Alright, to all my group text friends out there, please send me encouraging. Yeah, send me send me snarky together laugh together. Like, we’ve got that part covered. I just want more encouraging news. More help? Yeah.

Dean Inserra
Give me Give me Give me more of what God’s doing off each other about scriptures we’re preaching. I mean, this, this issue that’s happening and how do I think through this, it’s great now I’m just so thankful for it. Oh, that’s really fun. I thought you were just talking about Tom Brady all the time. That’s a lot but

Dean, what was the last great book you’ve read. Okay. I hope this count is a book because it’s a collection of essays. All lll. Okay, thank you. But Christ the cornerstone, just collected essays of John Stott from his days when he had an ongoing column and Christianity today. So it’s these essays from Scott from the 70s and 80s lexan. Put it out and it’s fantastic. I was John Yates, who was the longtime Rector at the Falls Church Anglican in DC. I was his assistant, his intern, Assistant. Hey, I really I’m not Anglican. But I was I went and worked with him just to be with Him and do life with him for that long was incredible. And he was so influenced by Scott had a personal relationship with Scott. So I really got exposed to a lot of Staats writings. And I’d never seen this before. And I was at the for the church conference in Kansas City where I was doing a breakout session at Midwestern seminary. And I saw this book on the table, the resources area, and I said, What is this? I grabbed it. It’s essays of start from this Christian today column days, I’d recommend to anybody. It’s called Christ the cornerstone by John Stott. And it’s great. I have it up there on my shelf and I didn’t even know it.

Collin Hansen
I got I gotta pull it down. I got to pull it down. Well, that’s why I asked the question that’s lovely. My guest on gospel bound Dean Inserra, author of getting over yourself trading Believe in yourself religion, For Christ centered Christianity, Dean, just what I hoped would be able to learn from you. Thank you.

Dean Inserra
Thanks for having me.