Siblings, Young and Old

The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

0:00:00 – (Courtney Doctor): When you all were raising your children, did you let them fight? I mean, like, like, that’s a joke question, right? But let’s cancel it.

0:00:06 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah. Did you, did you say, okay, here is your time?

0:00:10 – (Jen Wilkin): I said, it’s fighting time. Children.

0:00:21 – (Melissa Kruger): Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I am Courtney Docter, here with my friend and co host Melissa Krueger, and we are joined today by our good friend Jen Wilkin. Welcome, Jen.

0:00:38 – (Jen Wilkin): Hi, guys.

0:00:39 – (Courtney Doctor): Yay. We’re so glad to have you back. And today we are going to be talking about fostering good sibling relationships. And we’re going to do it from both sides of the coin, so to speak. We’re going to talk about it with the children we may be raising, how to foster good relationships with them, but also the siblings we grew up with. How do we foster good relationships in the families that we were born in and the families that we are currently maybe producing?

0:01:09 – (Melissa Kruger): How do you say that?

0:01:11 – (Courtney Doctor): I don’t know. Currently involved with. But let me start by saying what, what was the family dynamic that you grow. Grew up in? How many siblings did you have? Jim, we’ll start with you, and then Courtney, we’ll, we’ll all share.

0:01:25 – (Jen Wilkin): Okay. So I grew up in a blended family. I have two older brothers and then I have two younger step bro brothers. And I’m the only girl, any way you cut it. So that was a big strategic move. I can also play the youngest child card in my biological family, but I grew up with the four brothers. So, yeah, we were like, I lived about 10 minutes from my dad and so tons of time spent together, even though we were in two different houses for some of that. And so we, I don’t call them stepbrothers. I call them brothers.

0:02:00 – (Jen Wilkin): And, and do you want to know, like, the quality of those relationships while we were growing up? Is that what we’re divulging at this point?

0:02:09 – (Courtney Doctor): I’ve got assumptions that you were probably tortured a good bit, but that’s.

0:02:13 – (Jen Wilkin): Yes, yes. And I was tortured a great deal. And I responded with verbal abuse since I did not have physical strength. So that, you know, super healthy. And yeah, I would describe our relationships as loving but adversarial in childhood. And it was not until adulthood that I would say we really. And that’s not to say that, like, we were always fighting, but that, that was definitely a, A, a component that figured heavily into the relationship.

0:02:42 – (Courtney Doctor): This is one of those moments when you realize, oh, hardship produces Jen’s ability with Words. I know.

0:02:48 – (Melissa Kruger): That’s what I was thinking.

0:02:49 – (Jen Wilkin): Well, that this is a redeemed version.

0:02:52 – (Courtney Doctor): Exactly.

0:02:52 – (Jen Wilkin): Exactly.

0:02:53 – (Courtney Doctor): But I’m just saying you. You learned. You learned how to do it probably pretty young.

0:02:58 – (Jen Wilkin): Yeah.

0:02:58 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah.

0:02:59 – (Courtney Doctor): What about you, Courtney?

0:03:00 – (Melissa Kruger): Well, I want to ask Jen real quick. What’s the age gap from the oldest to the youngest?

0:03:05 – (Jen Wilkin): Yeah. So my. My brother Chris is three and a half years older than me. My brother Pete is two and a half years older. So they’re only. They’re less than 12 months apart.

0:03:15 – (Courtney Doctor): Wow.

0:03:16 – (Jen Wilkin): And so they grew up, you know, super close. And then my two younger brothers are four and five years younger than me.

0:03:23 – (Melissa Kruger): Okay. Okay. So you guys are all pretty close in there together.

0:03:26 – (Jen Wilkin): Yeah.

0:03:27 – (Melissa Kruger): That’s pretty fun. I just have one brother, two years older.

0:03:32 – (Jen Wilkin): Yeah.

0:03:32 – (Melissa Kruger): I mean, I don’t know what else to say. That’s, like, so boring. That’s what I got.

0:03:37 – (Jen Wilkin): That’s good. Yep.

0:03:39 – (Courtney Doctor): I’m the same level of boredom. One brother, three years older, and that’s. That’s it.

0:03:45 – (Melissa Kruger): That’s what we got. Yeah.

0:03:47 – (Jen Wilkin): Did you guys grow up, like, best buddies or.

0:03:51 – (Melissa Kruger): No. We fought a lot.

0:03:52 – (Jen Wilkin): Yeah.

0:03:53 – (Melissa Kruger): And. And physically, I remember my mom saying, one point, she goes, just don’t hit her in the face. And I thought, that’s my last line of defense. Just don’t hit her in the face. So I had a lot of, you know, arm. A lot of arm bruises. That was. That was. The. The punch was. Was in the arm. I mean, it. Melissa’s face. Did you and your brother not fight?

0:04:17 – (Courtney Doctor): We did, probably. We did. We had a mixed relationship. You know, like, we also, like, I can remember dancing with him, like, when my parents would go out, like, we would put on music and dance together. So we did, too. Like, I mean, like, we did not do that. Yeah, I know.

0:04:34 – (Melissa Kruger): What.

0:04:35 – (Jen Wilkin): When there were no parents around, I got locked in closets or locked out of the house or. Yeah.

0:04:41 – (Melissa Kruger): When my brother started driving. He is a music buff. I. To this day, if I hear just a lyric, I can text him and say, what song is this? And I get not only the song, but also the reason the song was written and the different artists that were involved in it. He’s just. He’s very musically inclined, and on the way to school, once he started driving, he would ask me questions about the song on the radio, and if I couldn’t answer, he would kick me out and I’d have to walk to school.

0:05:05 – (Melissa Kruger): It wasn’t far, but it increased my music knowledge rapidly.

0:05:11 – (Jen Wilkin): What are your. This is kind of interesting. What are your Brother’s professions. Like, who did they turn into?

0:05:17 – (Melissa Kruger): Oh, my brother’s great. He’s a. He’s a salesman. He’s worked in the telecommunications industry. He’s lived. He’s fluent in Chinese. He’s lived internationally several times. Yeah, I don’t think he punches anybody anymore, but he still loves music.

0:05:34 – (Courtney Doctor): I didn’t mention that. My brother also did have, like, the good twin brother that he would pretend to be. So when he had been mean to me, he would be turned into Bobby. I was debating whether to mention this because. And he’d be like, I’ll go get Bobby. And for some reason, I played along just so he’d start being nice to me so I wouldn’t go tell on him and all of those things. But he’s a lawyer. And I was like, huh, that fits, right?

0:06:03 – (Courtney Doctor): He studied law. He was in politics for a while in the state of North Carolina, and actually now he owns a chicken franchise.

0:06:12 – (Jen Wilkin): Oh, my gosh.

0:06:13 – (Melissa Kruger): I love it. But not the one I love. We all know there’s one I love over there. But what. This just starting off like this just lets us know that a little bit of sibling conflict is a. Not going to just kill the whole sibling game. And it’s pretty normal.

0:06:30 – (Courtney Doctor): Pretty normal, yeah. Okay, well, when you all were raising your children, did you let them fight? I mean, like, like, that’s a joke question, right? But let’s.

0:06:41 – (Melissa Kruger): Did you say, okay, here’s your time?

0:06:43 – (Jen Wilkin): I said, it’s fighting time, children.

0:06:46 – (Courtney Doctor): Here’s the ring.

0:06:50 – (Melissa Kruger): Gave my brother and I boxing gloves when we were little.

0:06:53 – (Jen Wilkin): He gave us each a set.

0:06:54 – (Melissa Kruger): So, yeah, I guess they let us. But, Jen, what about you raising your kids?

0:06:58 – (Jen Wilkin): So I would say that there, I. I felt like there was a certain amount of letting them work it out on their own that needed to happen. But the standard was not, hey, the way you solve your problems is by fighting. But there’s a recognition that the way that you learn that the standard is better is by having some fights. And so I tried to be hands off until things took a turn that was either dangerous or just so disrespectful that it was no longer, you know, a quote, a fair fight or a fight that was going to lead to anything productive.

0:07:36 – (Jen Wilkin): And I would say that’s pretty much the way that. And. And I hope that they, you know, a lot of that has to do with appealing to them and being like, hey, do dad and I fight like this? You know, like, do you see dad and I interacting this way? And in our case, like, Jeff And I, you know, forget to have fights about things we probably should. So they were, they didn’t have a reference point of coming from us, of we should, we should keep escalating things.

0:08:02 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah. I think part of what played into our family dynamics when my kids were young is I have two boys and then two girls. And so the, the genders are right next to each other and so the fighting looked very different. With the boys it was very physical. With the girls it was more verbal, emotional. And so sometimes it’s easier to catch the physical and it’s a little bit easier to maybe get a grip on.

0:08:28 – (Melissa Kruger): So yeah, let them know. But it was part of it. And so how do you, how do you speak into it in, in the moment?

0:08:36 – (Courtney Doctor): Well, in the moment. Then how did you teach conflict resolution? Like all kids are going to fight. I mean, we’re humans. Like they’re going to live next to each other. Someone’s going to take someone’s lala blanket, whatever you call it, and it’s going to be a nightmare. So how, in that there are going to be healthy ways to deal with that and unhealthy ways to deal with that. How did you, did you have any tricks that you tried to use to communicate to them this is how you resolve that conflict better?

0:09:06 – (Jen Wilkin): I think I got some good advice early on. There was a piece of advice I got early on that was helpful and then there was a piece of advice I wish I had gotten a lot sooner that was helpful and, or a trick, I would say a way of talking. And so the one that I received early on was it’s not your job to be the referee. Right. So in whatever way I did step in, it wasn’t like I’m going to, I’m going to issue a ruling on how this is going to work out. And of course, so much of this has to do with what are the ages of the children involved and what’s the difference in age between the children and the conflict. Because a five year old who’s slugging a two year old is a different conversation than a five year old and a four year old that can’t get along.

0:09:47 – (Jen Wilkin): They have to recognize the, you know, the different roles that they play in the family. But that not being the referee meant that if I did jump in to the middle of an argument, it wasn’t to issue a verdict, it was to help them work toward a solution between the two of them. And then the piece of advice or the trick that I wish I had gotten earlier in the parenting game was to stop the two assailants and say, which one of you is being the kindest?

0:10:18 – (Jen Wilkin): Because that reframes it, you know, instead of which of you is being the worst, it’s who’s setting. Who’s setting the standard for being kind here? And, you know, it can almost feel facetious to say it, but it’s actually a really good skill for kids to learn of, like, oh, is my default how can I get what’s coming to me? Or is it how can I be kind?

0:10:38 – (Melissa Kruger): Oh, that’s good. That’s good.

0:10:39 – (Jen Wilkin): And it solved all our problems, right?

0:10:42 – (Melissa Kruger): And then all.

0:10:42 – (Jen Wilkin): Yeah, they never fought again. It was amazing. Exactly. That’s beautiful.

0:10:45 – (Melissa Kruger): That’s beautiful. Wish I had learned that trick earlier, too. Wish my mom.

0:10:48 – (Jen Wilkin): You’re welcome, everyone. You’re welcome. Welcome, Internet and all of you.

0:10:51 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah, I think we.

0:10:53 – (Melissa Kruger): I followed in my mom’s footsteps on this and tried to talk a lot about the long game. I remember my mom sitting my brother and I down and talking a lot about, you know, it’s just you two. You two are, you know, friends will come and go, but this is your sibling. And. And, you know, when you’re 80, you’ll be, you know, it just like a lot of that talk about the long game. And I think that that really does help.

0:11:18 – (Melissa Kruger): But at the end of the day, too, I. I keep hearing, you know, kind of on social media in different places now, young moms saying stuff like, you know, if your child doesn’t mean it, don’t force them to apologize. And I’m like, wrong. No, we do not agree with that. I’m like, you just have to go through the actions. I don’t care if they’re like, sorry, you know, yeah, you can say, can you try it with a little bit more? But you have to. You have to go through the motions.

0:11:47 – (Melissa Kruger): Learning to apologize, learning to forgive. How. How often do we do what’s right, even when we don’t feel it? And so sometimes we have to let our emotions catch up to our actions, but it’s still good and right to require the actions. And so I would say keep the law. Go ahead, Jen.

0:12:06 – (Jen Wilkin): Well, I was going to say children learn by doing, like, developmentally. That’s what’s true about them. And I think sometimes there’s a tendency for a parent to project an adult mentality onto a childish behavior. Like, we don’t. We don’t go. Well, I’m not going to train my kid to say please and thank you until they really mean it. Like, you just know a child needs to get through life understanding how to say please and thank you.

0:12:31 – (Jen Wilkin): And so we give them words for it before they have the right motive to attach to it. And we pray that the Lord will develop in them that sense of outward focus that attaches the correct motive. But children by design are inwardly focused and they think about self first. And that’s actually kind of a self preservation. It’s a, it’s a developmentally appropriate place for them to be in because the world is against children in many ways. You know, it’s a dangerous place for them.

0:12:55 – (Jen Wilkin): They need to know that everyone’s going to advocate for what they need, but we outgrow that. Maturity is being concerned with the needs of others. But we don’t wait until that concern is formed in them to give them a language because by then they will have formed other language patterns.

0:13:11 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah, I agree that that ability to ask them to problem solve how they should have done it. So let you know, because it’s going to show up in, in different, I often think even in different genders in different ways. Like let’s say the lala has been taken. One child may hit to get it back, another child may whine to get it back. And so both are wrong. And you know, so the question I would often pose to my kid is what would have been the right thing to do in this situation?

0:13:42 – (Courtney Doctor): And that forces them to actually think and consider and again, this is going to get easier. A two year old’s probably not going to be able to do that. But you know, as they’re aging, what would have been the right way to handle that situation? What should you have done? You know, John, would you please give me my lala Black? That would have been the right way to ask.

0:14:01 – (Melissa Kruger): You’re like, exactly.

0:14:02 – (Jen Wilkin): Where’s the lala?

0:14:03 – (Melissa Kruger): In your house.

0:14:03 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah, that’s what, that’s what the big fight is about. You cannot touch someone else’s lala.

0:14:09 – (Melissa Kruger): Is that a blanket? Yes.

0:14:11 – (Courtney Doctor): The blanket, Yes. I don’t know why it was called that, but and the other thing I think is as you’re studying scripture to me, you know, with your family, with your kids, I mean, just study the story of Joseph. It’s in every kid’s book. Right. And I mean, talk about was it nice for his brothers to throw him in the pit?

0:14:33 – (Jen Wilkin): Nope.

0:14:34 – (Melissa Kruger): Right or wrong?

0:14:36 – (Jen Wilkin): Like is it relatable? Yes. Is it right?

0:14:39 – (Melissa Kruger): Right.

0:14:40 – (Courtney Doctor): But they’re gonna want to be the hero, right? I mean, like they’re gonna read the story and start to learn. Yeah, that’s not a great Way to behave. And, you know, what should the brothers have done in this scenario? And you can talk about what’s wrong about the parenting. Favoritism’s not good. I mean, all that. But they’re. Yeah, this. I. I just can never overemphasize with our kids studying scripture and these stories in the Old Testament. What a gift. The Lord gave us all these stories because. And everyone does stuff wrong in all the stories.

0:15:09 – (Courtney Doctor): So kids love finding the wrong in others. And so.

0:15:13 – (Jen Wilkin): And also adults.

0:15:14 – (Courtney Doctor): Yes. Yes.

0:15:17 – (Melissa Kruger): Kids of all ages.

0:15:18 – (Jen Wilkin): Where were we?

0:15:19 – (Melissa Kruger): Because. Yeah.

0:15:20 – (Courtney Doctor): As soon as you teach them that. Well, you’re not talking very nicely to dad. Your tone’s not really very good either. I’m like, I know, I know. No, I mean, so. But I think that is just a helpful place. I think sometimes we overemphasize correcting what’s wrong and don’t teach what’s right. And so with the kids helping teach what’s right in a calm setting can then later in the day, when it’s a negative setting, I think, give you some ammunition to say.

0:15:47 – (Jen Wilkin): And that’s a really important thing you just said, Melissa, because I think so much of this is parents tend to want to correct in the moment of crisis. They want to get a home run. And when everybody is amped up is kind of the worst time to give a big lesson out of it. Sometimes you persever to the other side of the crisis point, and then you circle back later and debrief, because that’s how we all learn. We all learn better that way. So certainly, certainly our kids are like that. And I, you know, I think another obstacle that parents are up against is.

0:16:18 – (Jen Wilkin): You guys can tell me if you see this in your context as well. But it’s. It’s almost like the fighting and the rivalry is just the way it’s going to be. It’s that we don’t have any expectation for anything more beautiful than that, because it’s just what we have to get through. We just have to, you know, endure it and break up the fights. And what I found is I’ve talked about this other places. I’m sure I’ve talked about it with you guys. Until I saw the loving sibling dynamic between my husband and his sister that had been since childhood.

0:16:56 – (Jen Wilkin): I would have said, that’s not even possible. And I even mocked it because I didn’t have a place for it in my own experience. But then it was like, once I allowed myself to entertain the possibility that if it was possible, it was something that was it was something I could cultivate, I could work toward. It really changed the parenting game in terms of thinking about sibling rivalry for us. And it didn’t mean that you didn’t have fighting, and it didn’t mean that. It just meant that you had a long view on it, and you were like, you know, today didn’t go great, but once things are calm again, how can I look for positive expressions of siblinghood that I can reinforce and point toward?

0:17:39 – (Jen Wilkin): But, yeah, I sometimes think parents don’t think it’s possible for kids to rise above it.

0:17:45 – (Melissa Kruger): I love that. Creating those categories and that just place to think about it. I know we did. My kids make fun of this now, so I’m not putting this out there as exemplary, that’s for sure. But in the girls. The girls shared a bathroom. They shared a bedroom. They shared a bathroom. And it was the day of the. Where you put the stickers on the wall, you know, that said something. And so this one said, best friends are we, My sister and me, in really big letters.

0:18:11 – (Melissa Kruger): And it was just like my whole. And then I had a painting in the boy’s bedroom of two brothers, you know, kind of from the back hold, you know, like arms around each other, walking through a field. And. And, you know, the point was, like, to intentionally put things in front of them that, hey, this is important. And we really talked a lot about getting it right at home before you had the privilege of kind of doing stuff outside the home. So if they became characterized by disputes.

0:18:44 – (Melissa Kruger): So this isn’t the one off. This is where you’re dealing with the same two in conflict over and over and over again. And you’re like, okay, this has become a character trait. Then we would kind of reign it in from the outside and say, you know what? We’re not. Not. We’re not having those friends over. You’re not going there like this until you two can get it right. Like, you’re really not. Because it. Of course. And we would talk about it. Of course, it’s easier to be nice to Jake. Of course, it’s easier to be nice to whoever. You know why when Jake doesn’t return your book, you’re like, oh, no worries. You know, I’ll get it later. But when your brother doesn’t return your toothpaste, you know, you’re socking him in the face. I mean, there’s a.

0:19:25 – (Melissa Kruger): Like, that’s not right. And so how do we kind of require and say, hey, this is actually the most important thing we have going on right here is how you guys within the family are treating. Are treating each other. So what are some things that you guys did, Melissa? Like to proactively encourage friendships between siblings?

0:19:47 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah. I think certain patterns that you have in your home can help with this. I mean, one thing we did, every birthday, every person in the family said something they love about the other person.

0:19:57 – (Jen Wilkin): We did that, too.

0:19:58 – (Melissa Kruger): We did that, too. You know, but it’s.

0:20:01 – (Courtney Doctor): It’s so special, right? I mean, because sometimes you never say what you love about each other. You just deal with the stuff, and then when they hear it, it goes in. It goes in really deeply. I think the other thing we did, we prayed together as a family regularly. And there’s something that happens when I pray for you. It just softens the heart toward one another. I mean, those are so simple. I mean, these are not, you know, we had, like, I don’t know, big, big things, but they were just simple. And I think. I think over time that simple made a difference.

0:20:39 – (Courtney Doctor): What about you guys? Jen, Courtney? Did y’ all have any things?

0:20:42 – (Jen Wilkin): We did that for sure. We did those things. And I. I mean, I’m like, wondering, was there something. Somebody promoting that at the time that we were having babies? Because I don’t remember reading it anywhere, but we loved. And that just that that culture of encouragement was just a real big value for us. And. And specifically during the prayer time, we would. One of the things we did to help them, like, really listen, was everyone would share what they wanted prayer for.

0:21:13 – (Jen Wilkin): But then afterwards it was, well, I’ll pray for Matt. Well, I’ll pray for Claire. You know, we didn’t assign that beforehand. So you listened to what everyone was saying, and then you had to sort of recall what that person had said, you know, who you were going to pray for. We. We did shared rooms. We had room for them to not share rooms, but we felt like the more overlap they could get in the home, the better.

0:21:37 – (Jen Wilkin): And I’m actually. I’ve been visiting with my daughter about this some because she has. She’s going to have kids sharing a room, and she’s like, do you just let them yammer on in there when it’s past bedtime? You know, when do you intervene? And I’m like, well, do you remember you and your sister? Just like. She’s like, I do. And it was those moments where I had to rulesy. Jen had to step back and let relationship form, even though it didn’t necessarily fit into my neat plans all the time.

0:22:04 – (Jen Wilkin): But I think in general, the principle behind what we did with the kids was we looked for as many ways for their lives to overlap as possible. And, and so that impacted candidly how we thought about things like travel, sports teams, or, you know, what were we going to commit each individual child’s time to? Because all of that impacts how much time they’re going to spend together. So then that’s a, you know, that’s a hot topic among parents. Right.

0:22:34 – (Courtney Doctor): What would you like to say about youth sports?

0:22:36 – (Jen Wilkin): What would I like to say? I won’t say anything about. Yes. Yeah, let me just. No. I think what I would love for parents to hear though is if you’re thinking, man, often we have an anti vision. It’s like we’re managing sin problems in the home instead of a beautiful vision, which is what if we all saw each other as our closest people, who we were going to travel through life with and then what do we need to do to get there? And so I think parents today think they only see the risk of not putting their kids in a bunch of activities, but they don’t perceive any risk. The other direction or the benefit of putting their kids in sports or sports is not the punching bag. It’s any of these things that people who want your time and your money are willing to market to you as a parent.

0:23:24 – (Jen Wilkin): And they only see the potential benefit or risk of whether they say yes or no to those spaces. And they don’t always look the other way and go, but what is the actual cost to our family and our family identity of opting into those things? And what is actually the benefit that we might reap over a lifetime if we spend more time in shared spaces?

0:23:46 – (Melissa Kruger): I love that. Well, I would advocate hard and heavy for family dinners that that space around the table every day is just so where, where no, you’re not making a separate meal for every child, but everybody eats what is the one prepared thing? Because even that matters. Right?

0:24:04 – (Jen Wilkin): It’s a shared, it’s a shared experience.

0:24:06 – (Melissa Kruger): It’s a shared experience. And so each piece of that family meal really matters. But also I remember hearing when my kids were young something about, you know, you can view your family if you view your family as standing in a circle and you’re all holding hands. Are you all facing out? Are you all facing in? And I really loved that because the all facing in was where we were paying attention to what the other one was doing. So my kids went to each other’s sports games. You know, they, they went and were present at those things. And I think that those, again, there is in no way Shape or form. I am trying to put the way I parented out as exemplary. I’m just saying there were a few things by God’s grace that I look back and I’m like, I’m really glad that we did that.

0:24:49 – (Melissa Kruger): And there are things like that where we, where we had, like you said, it wasn’t an anti vision. It was a vision of something beautiful. And we held it out there as this is our family culture and it. And it matters to be a part of this family. There is an identity that we can overplay that. Right. It can become where it’s. There’s no differentiation and that’s not going to be there. We’re not advocating for that.

0:25:14 – (Courtney Doctor): But.

0:25:15 – (Melissa Kruger): But to have a strong family identity that allows for differentiation, I think really does give the give a great launch pad.

0:25:24 – (Courtney Doctor): Courtney, one thing that I think that you said that’s actually important when you were talking about the dinner is you didn’t remove what might be a conflict. So sometimes we handle conflict resolution by removing the conflict. So I think about this now with everyone having their own device. You don’t even all have to watch the same show together anymore. And that used to be a source of conflict because, you know, we had one.

0:25:52 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah. Long trips. They were allowed to have this TV type.

0:25:56 – (Jen Wilkin): We did the same thing. Strap in.

0:25:58 – (Courtney Doctor): These people have no idea how hard that is.

0:26:01 – (Melissa Kruger): And the boys have to watch the girls, you know, their little Disney horse movies. Yeah. My boys say that they have watched Spirit more times than any boy should have ever seen. Spirit.

0:26:14 – (Jen Wilkin): Yeah. Forces them to have a shared experience.

0:26:16 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah. Yes. And I think that is missing as we get more individualized. Go to your room. Go to your room. Go to your room. I mean, you know, your device, your device, your device. That avoidance of conflict is not going to build relationship.

0:26:30 – (Jen Wilkin): We did it with music, we did it with a lot of things. And it was. But they learn, they end up learning. They think, oh, I have to set aside my preferences. You know, that’s the learning. But what they end up with are a lot of happy accidents where they realize that they got exposed to something they wouldn’t have known they loved until they tried it. And then there’s that connection that they’ll always have. Like my kids have this memory.

0:26:56 – (Jen Wilkin): They hated it at the time where I made them listen to Handel’s Messiah on the way out. We had an 11 hour trip out to Santa Fe a lot to see my parents. And they were also only allowed to watch one movie on the trip. And so they always chose the sound of Music because it was three and a half hours long.

0:27:11 – (Melissa Kruger): Swiss Family Robinson.

0:27:12 – (Jen Wilkin): Yeah. I’m like, if I, I, I know people want to watch that movie over and over again, but I’m like, I feel like I’ve probably seen my life quota of that movie. But. But with that extra. And I made them listen to handles Messiah. And I had printed out sheets with all of the scriptures that are sung, and they were scrambled and they had to number them according to the tracks. And then if they got it right, then we went to Chick Fil a on the way back. And so the, in the, in the moment, they were like, mom’s the worst.

0:27:43 – (Jen Wilkin): And years later, it’s this really funny shared memory that they have. And also, guess what? They all love the Messiah. Yeah.

0:27:52 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah. But it also speaks to something too. I mean, you saying that reminds me, I don’t know if they had to work together on this little activity that.

0:27:59 – (Jen Wilkin): You know, they were not. No, they actually weren’t allowed to. I, that probably would have taken it up a notch.

0:28:03 – (Courtney Doctor): Okay. But I was just thinking, we made our kids clean the dishes every night after dinner.

0:28:09 – (Jen Wilkin): Oh, yeah.

0:28:09 – (Courtney Doctor): And let me tell you, the way I dealt with that conflict was to go on the porch. I would, I could not sit in the kitchen while they were doing it. One, they were like, I would correct everything they were doing if I stayed. I’d be like, that is not how you clean a counter. That is so inefficient. You know, whatever. But. So I just removed myself because I.

0:28:29 – (Melissa Kruger): Knew they had to learn.

0:28:31 – (Courtney Doctor): And then I could come in and say, nope, it’s not done well enough. You need to do it again.

0:28:35 – (Melissa Kruger): Or, or whatever.

0:28:35 – (Courtney Doctor): But them having to argue about problem solve. Yeah. And one child always had to go to the bathroom conveniently after dinner for.

0:28:46 – (Jen Wilkin): A very long time.

0:28:47 – (Courtney Doctor): You know, but it’s just they, they learn to work together and, and you know, I think again, you might actually put them in situations where there’s going to be more conflict, like chores and things like that. And that, again, builds relationship. I don’t think we have to be afraid of, you know, putting them in that. You’re laughing, Courtney. What are you laughing at?

0:29:07 – (Melissa Kruger): Because parenting techniques that I have employed, you know, I’ll just, I’ll toss it out there to the world of the Internet. Have you ever seen the get along T shirt where you put two kids in a big.

0:29:16 – (Jen Wilkin): Oh, I have seen that.

0:29:18 – (Melissa Kruger): Well, we may or may not have done similar things and then given jobs to do, like mow the yard and go get the mail, which is a quarter of a mile away because we lived in the country. I mean, it was like, no, this isn’t. I’ve never been a fan of saying, oh, you two aren’t getting along. Go to your separate rooms. I was always a fan of, oh, you two aren’t getting along. I’m going to ramp it up. Like, we’re going to.

0:29:40 – (Jen Wilkin): We’re going to.

0:29:41 – (Melissa Kruger): We’re going to tighten the lid down on this, and. And you guys are going to have to figure it out in the context of the conflict, because I don’t think that the best way to resolve conflict is to say, oh, go get your. I mean, we all need to walk away sometimes. That’s not what I’m. I’m not saying there’s a difference between.

0:29:57 – (Jen Wilkin): Taking a breather and. Yeah, exactly. Given exactly what they wanted, which was to not have to deal with each other.

0:30:02 – (Melissa Kruger): Exactly. But instead, like, oh, okay, actually, like you said, like, now the two of you are going to do the dishes every night for a week. And, you know, it’s just that. Because by the end of it, you know, they’re laughing. They’re. Again, it’s a shared memory. It’s kind of all the things we’ve been talking about. Well, I think that we should take a break for a word from our sponsor, and when we come back, we’re going to kind of flip the conversation a little bit and talk about sibling relationships as adults.

0:30:31 – (Melissa Kruger): So we’ll be back in just a minute.

0:30:35 – (Courtney Doctor): Okay. Well, welcome back. We just a moment ago were discussing how to foster healthy relationships between sibling children. Let’s go back. We talked at the beginning of the episode about our siblings that we grew up with, our families that we grew up with. How is your relationship with your siblings different now from what it was when you were growing up? How does it look different in your family today?

0:31:00 – (Jen Wilkin): I think it’s interesting that the three of us don’t have sisters.

0:31:03 – (Melissa Kruger): I know.

0:31:04 – (Jen Wilkin): Do you think that’s why we like hanging out so much? Maybe we’re sisters. Well. And yeah, the reason I was thinking about that is because I can see between my daughters a very different quality of relationship than I have had with my brothers or would expect to have with my brothers. So, like, when I think about what my adult relationships are like with them, I love them. I am eager to see them. We live far apart, and so we don’t see each other often, but we are all committed to being good children to our parents in the aging process.

0:31:41 – (Jen Wilkin): And we kind of have, like, everybody kind of knows their way to contribute to that. And it’s a. It’s a peaceful and helpful arrangement. Like, no one is asking the person who lives really far away to provide a form of support that’s. Is not feasible. And I also understood, at least, and this may be too traditional for some of our listeners, but I. I really did understand that as the daughter, I would. I would bear a particular care role that I would not have held.

0:32:12 – (Jen Wilkin): Held the boys to. And in some ways, I’ve even had to say, like, to my stepmom, hey, let me interact with you in the daughter role. You know, like, I’m not hiding from that. I’m not looking to give you a pass on that. I want to you. I think she, you know, was maybe a little hesitant to. To. To sort of call in the chips on that relation, relational capital she had built with me all those years. So I would say we are deeply committed to each other. We don’t talk once a week.

0:32:46 – (Jen Wilkin): We, you know, depending on what everybody’s going through, we may only talk every couple of months, but we are all on the same page, and we’re there for each other in an instant if.

0:32:57 – (Courtney Doctor): If.

0:32:58 – (Jen Wilkin): If there’s a need.

0:32:59 – (Courtney Doctor): Is this the Holy fire stepmother? Just want to clear that up.

0:33:02 – (Jen Wilkin): Yes. This is the stepmother whose hair we lit in Jen. She’s like, I dyed her hair. She doesn’t want me to ignite.

0:33:10 – (Melissa Kruger): You don’t know what we’re talking about.

0:33:12 – (Courtney Doctor): I hope she’s not on oxygen. I didn’t go back and listen to.

0:33:15 – (Melissa Kruger): Jen’s talk at DGCW24.

0:33:18 – (Jen Wilkin): Yes.

0:33:19 – (Courtney Doctor): Yes. Yeah.

0:33:22 – (Jen Wilkin): What about you guys?

0:33:23 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah, it’s interesting when I think about it, my brother and I both got really close when we came to Faith. And so that was this huge unifier for us. We both got really involved with fca. In fact, my freshman year of high school, he was pretty much bullying me into coming. I was like, I did not want to go to this religious thing with you.

0:33:43 – (Jen Wilkin): Oh.

0:33:44 – (Courtney Doctor): You know. But he was my cool older brother. He was a senior, like, basically forcing his little sister to come. And I think about that, like, I mean, it was a huge impact on my life. Just him draw. He really drew me into a lot of things, and I was a natural introvert. He is the biggest extrovert on the planet. So I will say I’ve had to. You know, one thing that’s changed now is I’m more okay with being an introvert, you know, but for years, when you grow up in an extrovert shadow, as a younger Sibling. You think something’s wrong with you.

0:34:18 – (Courtney Doctor): And because he was like, you got to come do this with me. Got to come do this with me, or whatever. And so it is. Is. It is interesting to watch that relationship. It’s grown, but we live in the same city, and we’re pretty terrible about seeing each other, but there’s not tension. It’s just we’re both busy, and he’s got six kids. You know, there’s just a lot going on, and so I. I struggle with it at times. I’m like, I’ll see him, and I’ll be like, you know I love you.

0:34:46 – (Melissa Kruger): Right.

0:34:46 – (Courtney Doctor): I’m sorry I haven’t called in two months, or I haven’t seen you, but it’s.

0:34:50 – (Melissa Kruger): It’s.

0:34:50 – (Courtney Doctor): It’s an interesting thing, but we both know it’s kind of like what you were saying. If things are ever wrong with mom and dad, we’re there for each other. You know, that’s a big thing for both of us. In fact, when he calls, he goes, I just want you to know nothing’s wrong. Because normally that tells me how infrequently we’re talking these days.

0:35:08 – (Jen Wilkin): Yeah.

0:35:09 – (Melissa Kruger): But.

0:35:09 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah, you just kind of live life. But it’s that assurance that they’re there, too, which. Which is a nice thing. What about you, Courtney? How’s your change?

0:35:19 – (Jen Wilkin): I.

0:35:19 – (Melissa Kruger): You know, he doesn’t punch me anymore. That’s a good. It’s. I’ve got a great brother. We just are coming off of a week together. We were all together for my mom’s 80th birthday, and it was really sweet and fun, and my brother’s really good at picking up the phone and calling, and I’m grateful for that. You know, it’s a. He’s. He’s just a communicative guy. I’m two years younger, but I got married and had kids significantly sooner than he did.

0:35:46 – (Melissa Kruger): And so in some ways, there’s been a little bit of role reversal where I’m a little. Just because I’ve, you know, I’m further down the path on some of those life things. And then again, the daughter, I think, you know, there’s just a different. A different role. But. Yeah, and, you know, the thing I would say is I. I learn from my children, and my children have phenomenal adult sibling relationships. They prioritize it.

0:36:14 – (Melissa Kruger): They invest in each other when they’re together. They have what’s called sibling night.

0:36:19 – (Jen Wilkin): Oh, my kids do that, too.

0:36:20 – (Melissa Kruger): Isn’t it fun?

0:36:21 – (Jen Wilkin): And I’m not invited. I’m like, do the parents ever get to come to sibling dinner? No.

0:36:25 – (Melissa Kruger): Now my dad crashed it last time over Christmas. They went bowling. My dad’s 82. He and I have two college athletes in that group. He beat them all at go at bowling.

0:36:36 – (Courtney Doctor): Like that is so athletic.

0:36:38 – (Melissa Kruger): It’s unbelievable. Well, he just beat him at pickle ball this last week. It’s unbelievable. But yeah, so my dad was invited in. He crashed it. But then they’re like, yeah, come on, papa. But, but I learned from them. And that’s, you know, the way they, they do pick up the phone and call. They do stay pretty tethered, you know, to each other and, and their lives. And so I, you know, I love, I learned from that. I love, I love the ways there’s multiple areas in my life where my adult children have been really instructive to me and that things I want to emulate in them. And that’s one of them for sure.

0:37:12 – (Courtney Doctor): What do you see as the biggest pressure points as we move into adulthood with our siblings? Like, I mean we’ve all lived through different ones of these because it’s, you know, we, and we all are blessed to have really great siblings. But there are still, there’s a reality of being in families that issues don’t go away. I mean they may not punch you anymore, thankfully, but there are still points of disagreement. I mean, there are a lot of things that can come up. What are some of the things you’ve seen? It could be in your own family or in other, you know, friends as they’re wrestling through these things.

0:37:45 – (Courtney Doctor): What are those pressure points that can come up?

0:37:47 – (Jen Wilkin): I think it’s hard for us sometimes to let our siblings be full grown adults and to have gone through the same process of learning and change and growing in wisdom that we have. In the same way that sometimes your parents will say something to you and you’re like, yeah, I’m not 12 anymore. You know, and I think we can do that with our siblings sometimes. And it’s really cool to have an adult experience of your sibling and be like, you are a multi dimensional person who has done some living and you are the same person I knew, but also a really more just grown up. Like you have so much more to your life experience than the however many years we shared a roof together.

0:38:31 – (Jen Wilkin): I have felt that so often with, like when, when a brother will step in and say, well, I can help with. So for example, one of my brothers is also an attorney and when my son was going through the adoption process, they hit a major snag and it was looking bleak. And my brother is a family law attorney, and he’s like, no, I got you. Don’t worry about it. We’ll get it taken care of. And, you know, got everything put through. And. Well, I don’t think of him as a family law attorney. I think of him as the kid that I used to play uncle with because he was younger than me and I could inflict pain on him, you know, and you’re just like, wow, you’re actually. You’re a really cool human, and I’m glad you’re part of my family.

0:39:08 – (Jen Wilkin): And so I think those moments, we sometimes have to give ourselves permission to walk toward. And you have to. You have to actually sometimes do a little research into the person that your sibling has become or you’re. Or you’ll be tempted to. To keep them trapped in a former version of themselves. And I. And I think I’ve also, like, had to learn to pray for my siblings expansively, to think of, like, you know, what might the Lord have for this person instead of some memory of who I thought they were, if that makes any sense.

0:39:41 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah.

0:39:41 – (Melissa Kruger): And I think just along those lines of letting your siblings grow up, I think it’s that everybody has the responsibility to step into their family of origin, continuing to grow out of your original roles. You know, how everybody. When you get in that family system, everybody reverts and everybody regrets it. You know, everybody’s like, I hate it when I act like this. And. And so learning how to encourage each other. And I think, Jen, what you were saying is part of it. It’s saying, you know what? I see that growth in you, and I’m going to honor it.

0:40:15 – (Melissa Kruger): Like, it’s helping each other step in as the. As the whole people we are. I don’t know what that is about, reverting to our childhood roles, but, man, I’ve seen it in myself. I’ve seen it in my children. It’s just. But when you asked Melissa, the biggest pressure points, you know, the one that I thought of, it’s discipline issue with. Discipline issues with each other’s kids. Like, when you parent differently and you’re all in the same space, it’s really hard because then you’ve got the cousins or you’ve got the, you know, you’re irritated with your brother or sister or whoever it is that they’re not that, you know, that they’re either disciplining your child or I, like, we just have to give each other space and grace to parents differently. But for some reason, in the sibling relationship, I think that can be really, really hard.

0:41:02 – (Courtney Doctor): And it often comes up around the holidays. So that was another one I was thinking about earlier was, you know, when are you all going to be here? When are we going to be. Yeah, there’s a dance that gets done every year and every year it’s kind of stressful about what schedule works best for this family and that family. And then you get into, well and you give this many Christmas gifts and we give this just complicated, you know, those situations or what types of gifts.

0:41:34 – (Courtney Doctor): It’s like all of a sudden your kids gifts look like, huh, you got that nice, you know, I don’t know, I mean, whatever thing. And then they got a new sweater.

0:41:44 – (Melissa Kruger): And your cousin got a Nintendo Switch or whatever it was at the time.

0:41:49 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah, exactly. I know. I didn’t want to denigrate any presents. Sweater is a good one.

0:41:54 – (Melissa Kruger): Here’s your cardigan. Yeah, yeah.

0:41:58 – (Courtney Doctor): And then. So it’s just, it’s complicated. I think as parents age, I’ve watched some friends go through, you know, just really tough things with their parents and it was really sweet. I was actually at a friend’s parents funeral recently and she and her sister, a lot of the caregiving fell to them in the, in the last, last, you know, six months. And what was beautiful about it was the way one of the brothers who was speaking honored that he really saw it and spoke about it and it was really sweet. Like he was like, you two are the best sisters I could ever imagine and you took the best care. I mean, I just teared up as he was tearing up talking about it.

0:42:40 – (Courtney Doctor): And it was just, you know, because I knew along the way that can be frustrating sometimes, you know, and to, to see it honored because there are going to be differences. Look, I’m already like, my daughter’s a nurse. And I’m like, yep, I got one to take care of me.

0:42:59 – (Melissa Kruger): My kids all point to one child and they’re like, that’s the one.

0:43:03 – (Courtney Doctor): I know there’s no pressure on you, Emma. Right? I will name you Emma.

0:43:07 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah, exactly.

0:43:07 – (Courtney Doctor): No pressure. There’s pressure, there’s pressure, but it’s, it’s, you know, it can, I think that can happen. And, and Jen, I mean, one thing I actually learned from you, I remember you talking about the privilege of caring. And when I was going through a situation with my mom and she had broken a hip and her cancer had returned, I just remember thinking, I’m so thankful I am healthy to be able to. Yes.

0:43:34 – (Courtney Doctor): You know, you could spend the whole Time thinking well why am I doing this and why are you all the comparison type things but just to, but we have to discipline our own hearts in those matters to say hey, I’m so glad I get to be in this role doing this. And you know, and that that kind of can help as we’re caring for aging parents.

0:43:56 – (Jen Wilkin): Well, and that’s, you guys know, that’s the headspace I’m in right now. I’m trying to get this book written that’s dealing with a lot of these topics. And one of the things that I just keep coming back to is how things have shifted generationally since my parents generation and my generation and then my kids generation and how my parents generation, they were the ones who. It’s after World War II, people have more mobility.

0:44:22 – (Jen Wilkin): And the American dream is you take off from your town of origin and you live wherever you need to to fulfill your career goals and your goal, you know, whatever that American dream looked like for that particular family unit and you and your two and a half kids is enough to sustain every bump that life will send your way. And a return to where you came from is actually a sign of failure. And a return to needing care from your children would also be a sign that you didn’t actualize the American dream and become self sufficient even to extreme age and death.

0:44:59 – (Jen Wilkin): And so now I think what we’re seeing is people and among those people are sociologists are saying hey, that thing with, with, with you and the 2.5 kids, that was never going to work. Like there aren’t enough shock absorbers for when life gets hard. And so with our kids, when I was raising them, I didn’t have top of mind the significance that their relationships would play in caregiving for Jeff and me because I think I was still of the mentality somewhat of my parents that for my children to be my caregivers would have meant I had failed in some way.

0:45:37 – (Jen Wilkin): And what I’m just seeing with increasing clarity is that our culture is unique in that belief that the vast majority of human cultures, children grow up expecting that they will provide care. And, and, and so like you know, there are all different kinds of family dynamics. There are all different kinds of ways that aging plays out. But when I think about the way I talk to my kids now, I talk to them differently than, than my parents talk to me.

0:46:06 – (Jen Wilkin): I, I actually hope that we will get to enjoy relationship into extreme, into my extreme age. And if that’s the case, it’s going to require some things of you guys and you need to be able to work together. And I hope you will be able to. But like, what I’ve learned in the caregiving toward the parents piece is that whereas my mindset going into it was it’s all cost, like it’s all self sacrifice, then I learned that’s actually so far from the truth that it, that there is a benefit that flows downward to the caregiver as well.

0:46:41 – (Jen Wilkin): And I think I’ve actually started to think in terms of like, I don’t want to refuse my children the opportunity to learn the beautiful things that I’ve learned, even though it requires a lot of vulnerability on the part of an aging parent to let a child into that space.

0:46:59 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah, that’s really good. So you’ve, you’ve, I’ve walked it with my mother in law. My father in law died young and suddenly, so we didn’t with him. And my parents just aren’t there yet.

0:47:10 – (Courtney Doctor): But they’re still winning at pickleball.

0:47:12 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah.

0:47:12 – (Jen Wilkin): Oh my gosh, how great. That is amazing.

0:47:16 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah, they’re, they’re unbelievable. But it’s wonderful. But, but what advice would you have for our listeners? You know, we’re talking about, about siblings. And so.

0:47:26 – (Jen Wilkin): Yeah.

0:47:27 – (Melissa Kruger): So caring for, if, if you have a sibling. Not everybody has a sibling in caring for their aging parents, which comes with its own burden.

0:47:35 – (Jen Wilkin): Right.

0:47:35 – (Melissa Kruger): But also you get to navigate all the decisions. But, but when, I mean there’s, there’s, you know, hardship both ways.

0:47:43 – (Jen Wilkin): But.

0:47:43 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah, but for those that are trying to navigate decision making regarding aging parents with their siblings, that’s something, that’s a space you’ve been in. And Melissa and I really haven’t yet. And I know a lot of our listeners haven’t yet. And so what, what would you say?

0:48:00 – (Jen Wilkin): Yeah, I think things get tactical really fast, you know, especially if there’s been a sudden health crisis and you’re just having to make a lot of decisions. And so I think as many conversations as you can have philosophically about how you’re going to tackle the aging process with parents are really helpful because people come at this from very different spaces. And I’ll just say for listeners, the most helpful book that I have read on this is called Being Mortal by Atul Gawanda.

0:48:30 – (Jen Wilkin): And what it does is I think what happens is the kids step into the caregiver space and think, now I need to parent my parents. But your parents are not children. They may have a body that is returning to a more childlike set of limits than they have had in full blown adulthood, but inside their Interior life is that of an adult. And that means that they as much agency as they can retain around their wishes and their preferences.

0:49:03 – (Jen Wilkin): If the whole sibling group can recognize that or at least entrust one of the siblings with carrying that part of the conversation, then it maintains the interests of both the aged or the aging and the caregiver in a way that is there’s a recognition of the humanity of everybody involved. And so, you know, again, I’ve talked about how with my mom I would constantly tell her, you’re a person to love, not a problem to solve.

0:49:33 – (Jen Wilkin): Which is not to say that there aren’t very real problems that have to be solved as you walk through the process of caring for aging parents. But paramount is to keep at the center of that. This is a person, you know, this is a person who’s facing the, the unavoidable human suffering that comes with age. Like you may have avoided human suffering in some earlier stage of life, but if you live to extreme age, no one escapes, you know, the, the physical limitations that some people encounter at earlier stages.

0:50:03 – (Jen Wilkin): And, and so you think about how do I want, how would I want to be treated, you know, if I were dealing with the loss and the grief associated with that. And so as much as siblings can have those conversations before the. Again, it’s kind of like when you’re resolving conflict between siblings, have the conversations when you’re not in crisis. So that if, when the crisis point comes, there’s going to be a form of discussion and a form of decision making that has more to do with maintaining someone’s humanity than just dealing with the problem at hand.

0:50:36 – (Melissa Kruger): Oh, I commend the book too. It was so good. I was just talking to my sister in law about it this weekend. It kind of shifted the paradigm for me, like you were saying into the importance of giving and allowing the maintenance of agency versus kind of the prioritization of keeping them safe no matter what. Yes. How do you hold those things together and how do you. I remember when we were caring for my mother in law, saying to the other, to my husband’s siblings, you know, because they would almost prioritize her agency above everybody else. And I’m like, oh, her voice matters, but our voice, like it’s, it’s a group decision where everybody’ situation needs to play into it. You need to be able to have those conversations. But a book like that really does. We’ll put a link in the show notes, but it really does allow those conversations to start on a similar foundation.

0:51:27 – (Melissa Kruger): Jen, thank you for joining us again on the Deep Dish. We have one last question for you today. And, you know, I have a choice here. I could ask a snarky one or a nice one. I think I’m so torn, but I think I’m gonna go ahead and ask the nice one because it’ll be more edifying. But it what is your favorite thing to do with your siblings when you get together?

0:51:48 – (Jen Wilkin): I think it’s to laugh. Just we my family is extremely funny. People have really, really well developed senses of humor, which at times we have yielded us wield as weapons against each other. But we’re a lot older now, and so I think just laughing about those shared experiences and memories is some of our favorite pastime. And then also we, you know, we have high, high trust at this point, so we are able to poke fun at each other in ways that you can’t do with anybody else that, you know.

0:52:20 – (Jen Wilkin): And that’s another thing that we really have enjoyed doing.

0:52:24 – (Melissa Kruger): Oh, I love that. Well, friends, we hope you’ve enjoyed this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. If so, like, subscribe, share with a friend, and we will see you guys next time.