Social Sanity Book Club Chapter 5: Following Wisdom

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Sarah Zylstra
Hello, and welcome back to our book club discussion of social sanity in an Insta world. I am Sarah Zylstra. And I’m here with Laura Winkler who wrote chapter five on influence. Laura, we are so thrilled to have you with us today.

Laura Wifler
Oh, thank you for having me. It’s a joy to be here.

Sarah Zylstra
Can you take us back to the very beginning of when you first got social media? What did you get? And what was that like for you?

Laura Wifler
Oh, goodness, I still remember the day of joining Facebook, it was back in 2005, I had just entered college. And it was so exciting because it was still when Facebook required that collegiate email address. So it felt very exclusive and special. And I remember at the time, social media just feeling really fun and exciting. And I might even go as far as to say innocent, at least at that point, none of us were really thinking anything you know about it that could be bad or go wrong. And so I posted all sorts of photos, I filled up my platform all the way, like every single thing that you could fill in, it was filled in. And it was just so fun to have a space to connect with friends, you know, friends who had gone away to other schools, or that I had met at other schools. And it just felt like I had a great way to network and keep in touch that was so much easier than it had in the past. So I did Facebook for a long time. And in 2010, I started a blog kind of got onto that train of doing the thing everyone did at age 20 or 22. We all were blogging, and then I got on Instagram in 2012. And I think that started in 2010. So a couple years after it had began. But I remember finding Instagram, and just feeling like I had come home and feeling like you know, maybe my photos weren’t the greatest, I had a lot of room to grow and those things, but it felt a little bit slower pace than Facebook, it felt a little more intimate. There was a community there that not only I think felt like that innocence that we were talking about with Facebook, but it also felt very safe. And that was just a fun place to be at the time.

Sarah Zylstra
I love that. I think that’s kind of how we all felt when we first came to Facebook or Instagram or Twitter. Maybe it’s just like, oh, this is so fun to play with. And how could this possibly go wrong? We’re just talking to our friends. How was it tell me about when you first thought, hmm, maybe this isn’t the you know, the most amazing thing in the world? Maybe we got some a dark side?

Laura Wifler
Yeah. Well, honestly, I mean, I’m almost embarrassed to think about how long it took. But I think it was on social media for almost 10 years before I started really waking up to some of the more concerning features. And of course, I had noticed and chatted with friends for a long time that oh, you know, sometimes on social media, I have these feelings of envy or jealousy or covetousness. Like we have been talking about that, right. But it felt a little bit more like when you went to a friend’s house and you felt a little bit jealous of her furniture. And so it was like, Hey, this is just life, this is normal. And I didn’t realize maybe the depths of the difficulties that I was facing, or kind of taking in on social media until about four years ago. And at that time, I had a pretty major shift in my understanding of what the addictive qualities were of social media. I read a book in 2018. And it was all about phones and apps, and specifically social media and how they’re designed to be addictive, and how they are really designed to just have us go back for more and more and more a little bit different than the way your friend’s house is designed, right. And so that starts really playing into the way our brains work and how the dopamine is working. And there’s all this crazy science that I sort of geeked out on. But essentially, it became really frightening for me, honestly, when I realized that, hey, this is something that is sort of taking control of my behaviors, or it’s affecting the way that I’m not only thinking but the way that I’m acting, the things that are playing with my emotions, and it was even unknowingly starting to change my brain chemistry. And that was a real wake up call for me. And when I started to think more critically about the time that I spent on social media,

Sarah Zylstra
when you read that book, did it ring true? I’m assuming it did like were there. Did it ring true to you? Like were there things that they were describing? You were like, I’ve noticed that in my life? I Yeah. Okay. Yes.

Laura Wifler
Yeah. I mean, especially things like when they talk about the the dopamine hit that the likes and the comments and the interactions provide and how, you know, you’ll hear a lot from influencers where they’ll say, you know, it’s never enough followers. For many of us, we think, Oh, if I only get to 300 followers, I get to 30,000 followers, that will be enough, but really like the way human nature is designed, the way God designed us is that we always want more and social media is playing into that in almost like a negative way. And so I definitely resonated with a lot of that. And I resonated a lot with just how when you close the app and you go away, and you interact with your family or your with your husband or your children, how you’re carrying over feelings because you’re actually experiencing a deficit From the from the high dopamine hit, that was a positive. Everything is a teeter totter. So you’re always sort of paying for pleasure, right? There’s always some pain. And so you’re carrying that into your real life. And that was scary for me to realize that I’m not as in control as I thought I was. And so yeah, there are so many more things, but it really resonated.

Sarah Zylstra
So maybe that’s why it feels like your real life is boring, right? Like, they get off on line and just be like, oh, like you guys. And this house? And absolutely regular life is like, so dull. Compared to even how I make my life look on social media looks more fun than it actually is.

Laura Wifler
Yep, exactly.

Sarah Zylstra
As you say in your chapter, that we are all influenced by social media, even if we are not on social media. So even if a person has never signed up for an account, it seems like they would be protected. Still, how is it possible that even those people are influenced by social media?

Laura Wifler
Yeah, no, that that is like such a valid question. I think it’s one that all of us need to be asking. And there’s this great scene and the Devil Wears Prada, which is a movie that came out. Goodness, you know, 10 plus years ago, I’m not even quite sure. But it really exemplifies this concept. So there’s Anne Hathaway, she’s kind of the main character, and she is working for this high fashion designer, Meryl Streep plays this This high end fashion designer, and they’re debating over a belt in this scene, these these few fashion moguls, they’re debating which belt to use, and Anne Hathaway sort of laughing and she’s just thinking like, they all look exactly the same. Who cares? Yeah. And Meryl Streep responds to her really sternly. And she basically just says to her, and I’m going to actually read the quote, because I think it’s most powerful that way. But she, she turns to her and starts to talk about how you think, you know, this is silly. But actually, here’s why you should be taking it seriously. And she points to Anne’s blue sweater that she’s wearing. And she says, she’s she’s talking about the color and how it’s civilian, it’s not actually blue. And she says, and then civilian quickly showed up. After this big name designer picked it showed up in the collections of eight different designers, it filtered down through the department stores and trickled down to some tragic Casual Corner where no doubt you fish it out of some clearance bin. However, that blue represents millions of dollars and countless jobs. And it’s comical how you think you made a choice that exempts you from the fashion industry, when in fact, you were wearing the sweater that was selected for you by the people in this room from a pile of stuff. And I just think, yeah, that quote is so stunning, because I think a lot of us like to think that we are really immune from the bigger powers at play, that are selecting things. But this is exactly what we’re seeing play out on social media today. So you might think, Hey, I’m not on social media, I’m not affected at all. But what’s happening is the influencers and the top people on social media, whatever they’re doing, is what it’s filtering down into our culture ever so slowly, so it is affecting what stores are carried on the shelves at Target. It’s affecting what Etsy sellers are making. And it’s not only affecting the products that we are allowed to buy, or that we have access to. It’s also affecting methods. It’s affecting how you feed your kids, how you might clean your house, how you exercise, how you study your Bible, and even your beliefs, right, who you vote for, what causes you decide that you need to support what you think about in theology? And so all of these things, they’re filtering down into our culture, and it’s really the water that we’re now swimming in. So no longer are we necessarily looking only to like a list actors to decide, hey, this is what’s called aware, this is what’s cool to eat. And really, in the past, we didn’t have nearly as much access to them as we do with our top kind of influencers today, and many actors have now become influencers. Right? And and now they’re sharing more and more and more. And so our culture is now sat just absolutely saturated with what influencers covet what they care about what they believe. And so whether or not we want to accept it, like we have to wake up to that reality that it is, it is the waters we’re in.

Sarah Zylstra
Yeah. Wow. I think that’s true even for I mean, you’re talking about beliefs. That’s maybe the scariest part for me. Yeah. Of just all the language that we use, right? Even like the language that now we would recognize, like, just be yourself, just you do you or I heard somebody the other day that was like, yeah, it’s, you know, you’re the only one doing that to your path, like just be on your path. It’s, it’s yours. And it’s just like, you know, that’s just the language we use, and what that conveys. Okay, but here’s the thing. throughout all of history, we’ve been influenced. So even back when it was just a Good Housekeeping magazine that came to your house once in a while, like you’re still buying the things that somebody if you look back at, you know, housewives 50 years ago, their houses all look the same two because they’re buying from the same magazine and still being influenced in the same way. So what’s different about our I guess you’re talking about saturation level, like is that what’s different today versus our moms or our grandmas?

Laura Wifler
I do think there’s definitely a saturation level. And I think that there is an element that we are just like if the general culture, so not just the people who aren’t on social media, but it’s just the absolute amount of how often we’re going to these people. And I think something like a magazine in the past, we didn’t necessarily see it as like our friend, or like our girlfriend that we really trust. We liked it, it was almost like an authority. But now with influencer culture, there’s much more of an ability of saying, No, this is my friend, she really cares about me. She She, we almost feel like she knows us intimately. And we definitely feel like we know her intimately. And so there’s almost like an odd trust that has been built, that in some ways can be really beautiful. Like there’s, there’s a nice a good side of that. So I don’t want to make it all out to be evil. But there’s also this side of we’re neglecting our in person relationships, and the people who actually do know us and can actually see us. And we’re instead saying, Oh, this woman she can she can disciple me, and she can train me. And so whatever she does, that’s what I want to model and emulate.

Sarah Zylstra
Yeah, that’s amazing. Oh, it’s a lot to think about. Feel like we’re in the matrix or something. Like what’s happening? I thought I made this world it’s not somebody else made it for me. So we talk, I think, you know, we’re talking now about sort of an overt influencing, right, like an on purpose influencing influencers do that on purpose, they’re sharing their clothing, they’re in their homes, or their kids clothes, or whatever it is purposefully, but there’s also an influence that happens just from the platforms themselves. They’re not, you know, built just to be like an open marketplace, maybe in days gone by where you just go to a marketplace. And the only purpose there was to exchange goods and ideas that the thing is Facebook itself is having a voice and is and is trying to make us go away. But it doesn’t feel like that because it feels like we just created our own page. And, you know, we can choose when to go there. And it’s just a neutral spot. Talk to us about the influence of the of these places that we’re going to,

Laura Wifler
yeah, yeah, no, this, this is something again, that everyone kind of needs to take time to evaluate and learn and understand. And I think if we’re going to start anywhere, we really have to start out with our brains in the way that God has wired us. And so there is a lot of great work coming out now over the past couple of years about social media that is generating more and more conversations like the one we’re having today, and particularly, particularly out of Stanford, they’re doing a lot of pleasure and pain work with that I think is really interesting. I’m not an expert. So I encourage everyone to go do your own research and things like that. But there is an element of people starting to realize that hey, pleasure and pain, this is kind of what we’re talking about earlier, earlier. They’re they’re located in the same area of the brain. And they work kind of like a teeter totter, like we were explaining, they always want to be in balance. And so when you experience a hit of dopamine, which is something like a like or a comment or something that’s well received on social media, then you’re going to kind of tip towards that pleasure side. But as we said earlier, pleasure always has a cost, which means you’re going to tip back towards the pain side. And the more frequently it tips, the further the harder and faster, it keeps dipping back and forth, back and forth. And so the more pleasure you experience, also, the more pain you experience, like we have to remember, it’s always going back and forth. And so with that, I think that you might think about something like chips, right? Like we eat a lot of junk food, or whatever. And that’s why we feel like we feel that pain. And at that after I’ve experienced eating a chip, and I’m like, oh, I want another one because that salty, yummy taste is gone. So we eat another one, and we eat another one, and we need another one. And that’s why you want more chips, you want more chocolate, you just wait for another tick tock video, you post another picture, or whatever that is, is because we’re automatically saying I want more and I want to get out of that icky pain feeling. And another key to remember, I think with social media is that different substances, they produce different amounts of dopamine in our brains. So chocolate releases some, which is why we all really like it, right? We’ve experienced that pleasure. But if you’re going to maybe perhaps go do drugs or some like heavier thing that we often think of with addiction, well, you can’t recover as well. So you eat a piece of chocolate you can probably recover, but drugs are going to take a little bit longer and social media is more than chocolate less than drugs, but it’s somewhere in the middle. And that’s why we have to be really cautious. I think that we’re as we’re taking in social media, it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be on it that it’s a horrible thing because again, we would all say enjoy a chocolate cake you know and enjoy. Enjoy going to the moon movies, right? And media can be addictive. But we would also say that it doesn’t mean just because something has addictive properties like coffee, it doesn’t necessarily mean that we would say, oh, you can’t do that at all. But it does mean you need to engage with wisdom and self control. And, and that’s where I think with social media, like I was explaining at the very beginning of our conversation, we just think it’s fun. It’s just the playground, it’s just, you know, everything’s safe and innocent. But it isn’t that way, we actually need to treat it the way we might think about junk food, where we would say, you know, I really want to eat that pizza for three meals a day, I would like to, but I know that that’s not healthy for me. And I know that I won’t feel good afterwards. And I know that there are actually long term repercussions that would occur. If I were to eat pizza every single day, you know, that would have real effects on my health, that wouldn’t be good. And that same with social as we get on it 567 times a day. I mean, people look at their, you know, the screen time trackers, and you’re on it for hours. And that’s where I think what we need to do is slow down and say, okay, am I engaging here with self control? Am I using wisdom, because this is the other piece is that it is widely known today, widely known that social media was specifically designed to play off of this dopamine, pain, pleasure teeter totter. And I’m going to read another thing from Sean Parker, who’s one of the inventors of Facebook. And it’s a quote that he talks about what it was like when he was he was inventing these platforms. And he said, the thought process that went into building these applications, Facebook being the first of them, was all about how do we consume as much of your time and conscious attention as possible. And that means we sort of need to give you a little dopamine hit every once in a while, because someone liked or commented on a photo or a post or whatever. And that’s going to get you to contribute more content, it’s going to get you more likes and comments. And it’s a social validation feedback loop exactly the kind of thing a hacker like myself would come up with. So it’s, it’s not a secret, you know, I think people sometimes don’t want to wake up to this reality. But we really do have to admit that, okay, social media is addictive. And, again, different people are gonna have different tolerance levels, just like one friend loves her sweets, and another friend loves her salty, and you can say, No, some friends are going to be able to engage on social media more than another. And, and that’s okay, we have to allow there to be some differences. But we cannot just consume, consume consume any longer, we really need to step back and say, Okay, what is Wisdom applied here?

Sarah Zylstra
Are there warning signs? Like, how do I know if I’m a person who can consume this responsibly? Or if I’m a person who is who should stay away? Because I’m easily addicted or easily affected? Or, you know, are there warning signs that we can pay attention to?

Laura Wifler
Yeah, oh, definitely. I think the first thing is to really ask yourself about, well, how do I feel when I’m on it? Right. So there are some feelings that will occur. When you’re on it, you will feel jealous of somebody’s you know, do you feel judgmental of what they posted? Do you feel frustrated at someone’s opinions or comments? So paying attention to those feelings and letting them come letting them be felt, but also perhaps write them down? You know, observe that, then get off your phone? And think about okay, well, do I really want to go back to social media? Like, am I looking for an escape? And when I’m here with my kids, or when I’m at my job, and I’m a little bored? How often are you feeling that pull back to go to social media? That would definitely show you an addiction? Just like I mean, I’ll sit and like think about Fritos, you know? Am I gonna get the Fritos

Unknown Speaker
you know, it’s like, yeah, but you know, you

Laura Wifler
can train your tastes. And you can also train your social media habits, but thinking about how often are you wanting to go there, deleting the app and seeing how often your thumb moves to that little square it that is a huge indicator, because you’re probably mindlessly going more often than you think. And then thinking about just your emotions, like taking a social media fast, I think is the best way for anyone to really understand what their life looks like with it and what their life looks like without it and having some comparison and contrasting. And to be able to say, Okay, I like who I am better not being on it, or with good boundaries. And so I think everyone needs boundaries. I would say there’s probably not anybody who just should be this free Wheeler and I thought for a long time, I I do think I have a high tolerance. And so I thought for a long time, I didn’t need boundaries, but then fast and realize, oh, no, I am more in love with my real life if I have boundaries, so definitely, definitely considering those is huge.

Sarah Zylstra
That’s so interesting. I think I am a person with a very A low tolerance. I like because I would use it a lot. And then I never like myself or my life when I get off. Like, there’s never a time when I’m like, Oh, I was really glad I checked. But I never feel like that I always feel like Oh, back to real life or like, oh, no, I’m thinking about so and so. And you know?

Laura Wifler
Yeah. Well, it’s good to it’s just good to be honest about that. You know, like, again, I know, I keep going back to the diet thing, but it’s good to be aware of like, what’s your weakness? And if doughnuts are your thing, like, stay away from the donut shop, you know, like, yeah, just, it’s really just knowing yourself with those things, and being really truly honest about it.

Sarah Zylstra
Yeah. Oh, I think that’s so good. I’m gonna flip this around a little bit. Because to some extent, I mean, we there are people who are influencers, too, you know, who have followers, basically, I guess an influencer, I would think, would be somebody who is followed by people they don’t know. That’s my guess. But there’s also to some, you know, on the other side of that we’re all influencing each other, because everybody who’s on Facebook is friends with somebody else, even if it’s just 30 people, there’s somebody else on there who’s watching you. And so we didn’t get into this as much in the book. But can you talk a little bit about how does one even in your small everyday life of posting things? How do you make sure that you’re influencing? Well, the people who are following you and watching you?

Laura Wifler
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it’s the same thing that we have to think about in real life, right, is that all of us are influencing someone else, I remember the day that I realized I am the older wiser woman to this was a shocking thing to realize I have some responsibility here. And I think that the state of being we have to think about on social media, and that’s whether or not you have a large following. Truly, that there is influence going on always sort of that waterfall effect. And so you know, I think at first Corinthians 11, one when Paul says, Imitate me as I imitate Christ, and that means that in all that we do, whether we have the 300 friends or the 300,000 followers, we want to be a Christ follower, and allow that to inform all that we do as we create content online. Sorry, my dog just sparked.

Laura Wifler
So while this, you know, is going to look different, depending on your use of social media, how these things play out will look different. I think there’s a lot of conscience at play. We all need to take that honest inventory of our actions and say, Okay, why am I creating this content, whether that’s like that you’re going to offer whether that’s a comment you’re going to offer or a post that you’re generating, you know, all all by yourself? With all of these things, we really need to be asking, Why am I posting this? And then what am I hope to get from it? And, you know, we have to ask, like, am I looking for affirmation here? Am I looking for my worth through, you know, feeling validated by having my comment heard or having this post be liked? And well commented on? What happens? Or what do I feel if it goes unnoticed? Or if it’s ignored, or doesn’t perform well, like? Where does your identity lie? And does it rest in Christ? Or do you feel like you’re less worthy or less valuable? If it doesn’t do? Well? Another question to be asking, and I think that a lot of us don’t ask this enough is how are you loving the weaker Sister, you know, from Romans 14, you can’t please or help everyone, right? Because again, on social media, you’re talking to such a diverse community and such a diverse audience that you probably will hurt someone in order to help someone that is very common, but we can do things and take time to add nuance to consider how would this be heard by a woman who has experienced the death of a spouse? Or who has just graduated from college or consider as much as you know about the community that you have following you? How can you add caveats or nuance, or maybe it’s a time to just not post something because you know, that like, hey, this would sound a little tone deaf to what our culture is going through right now. So we really want to be considering that weaker sister. Another question would be How are you loving your neighbor online? Everyone online is our neighbor. And so that might be something like what you share it could be sharing about a friend’s business, right? That would love the individual sometimes. Yeah, we got our social media is think about how do I love the individual. But another thing is to love the big group. So that would be like loving the weaker sister, or even saying something like, I’m going to leave comments on my friends posts to let them know that I’m cheering on their kids in soccer, or I love seeing their new baby pictures or I love knowing that they got a promotion. I think some of us can become lurkers, I have a tendency to be a lurker and really saying no social media, what’s designed to be what some of the good things about it, it’s to be social. So how can you think about it? Um, ways to continue to not just like kind of lurk and judge but instead to love others well, and remember that they’re, they’re humans to their Imago Dei on the other side of that screen. And then lastly, I think this one that like social media would be a much more wonderful place if we all thought about how our online interactions are shaped by the fruit of the Spirit, right? Galatians five love joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. Those are the nine things nine things nine fruit.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, yeah,

Laura Wifler
we should know that. Those things, I think that we would say a lot less. And we would and say a little more other things, if we had those things, shaping our interactions, or the ways that we post photos, or the ways that we comment. Because if it can’t fall through those filters, then we would want to refrain. And so I think that that’s like a good guard as like, as I am writing this comment, or as I am going on stories, I’m going to talk to people, how is the fruit of the Spirit shaping my content, in order that I have, you know, an image in Christ, and I’m showing that Christ’s likeness online?

Sarah Zylstra
I think that’s really good. I love all those questions, because so much social media is just built to be performative. I mean, we can, we can comment on each other, but really, you’re going there to look at your page or to post something about your life. And Emily also, like, sort of uses that even as a chronology, right? Or like, it’s almost like an online scrapbook of like, oh, yeah, that’s right. Um, which is a beautiful way you can use it. But I think also, it’s tricky. And we wrote about this a little bit in the book, too, of like, the way that you post is not the way that you read, you know, you can post with your heart in one place, like, Rejoice with me, this is go so great, or, you know, or share tragedy with like, trying to share your heart with people, but the way that you read because there’s a screen in between you. It’s far different than if you were I were in the same room together. And I was telling you some awesome news or sharing something hard. And so just to be mindful of like, the way that people read it is not the way that you

Laura Wifler
Yes, but I also think, and this may be getting into territory, we don’t always cover but I’ve always had this question in my head, Sarah, of like, okay, when we create content online, who is the onus on for research? How that’s right. Yeah, good question, creator, or is it on the consumer? And I really believe there’s a very shared responsibility. I think, often, when I’m in the consumer seat, I’m like, it’s all about me, right? Like she, it was her job to make that work for me. And when I’m in the Creator seat, I’m like, oh, no, they should know my heart. That’s right. I didn’t know like that. And so there’s sort of this war, I think that often goes on between creator and consumer. And I wonder if there is, you know, if there were a, I’m going to believe the best in this person, I’m going to look at their ministry online, or their patterns online, or their behaviors online as a whole, I’m not going to single out this one post, I’m going to trust that she is trying to be as faithful in her life as she possibly can. And that it’s not my job to be faithful in her life and determine what she should be doing. And I can receive, and if that’s unhelpful for me, as a consumer, great, throw it away, you know, and if it is helpful, I can take that in and be really grateful that God has allowed this meeting on social media. And I just don’t think we come with a generous enough spirit to social media, we come with a very self focus that says it’s all about me. And that’s on both sides, greater consumer. And so as I have my Creator head on, I really try to think about how do I serve the women? Right? So not how do I talk about myself? Or how do I make this about me, but how do I serve the woman? And I really think as consumers, this has been kind of a good thing for me to be learning even to because like I said, I’m a lurker, thinking more about how can I serve the Creator? Right? Yeah. And again, that’s where I go back to what I said previously, of comments likes, even negative feedback when I’ve received it. When a woman comes to me with a genuine heart posture of saying, Hey, I don’t know if he meant it like this, but it felt like that, and they want to understand. I mean, it just it speaks. I’m so much more willing to listen. And I think that there’s something really beautiful there in the relationship that can happen when we’re both rooting for each other. Yeah,

Sarah Zylstra
I think that’s really good. I think it also, like the foundation for that is your relationship with God offline, like, you’ve got to be, you can’t just force yourself to be like that. That’s something that that the Spirit gives you and you can’t, you know, do your quiet time while you’re also scrolling. We try. We try. The same so, I mean, it just feels like social media. was like a little bit of frosting or something like, you have to have the cake underneath that you have to have the real life and the real interactions and your heart has to be right before the Lord. And then you can use social media. Well, social media is never going to by itself get you to the right. heart posture. That makes sense. Okay, so can you talk to us a little bit about how how you use how you use social media, I mean, we sort of generally can say, we know, checking your media, social media all day long is, is probably not good for you. We know being on for hours every day is not good for you. But there is unfortunately, no prescription of like, this is the right amount to be on, you know, or this is the right platform to be on or this is, you know, comment three times a day, and that’s the right. There’s no prescription like that. So how do you use it? And how did you find out how to use it for yourself?

Laura Wifler
Yeah, well, I alluded to this a bit earlier that I really didn’t have boundaries for a long time, because I could turn off Instagram or Facebook and not check it for a few days. I mean, that genuinely, I always felt like I was a little bit of a weirdo. Because you were my Yeah, I think I think I think perhaps a little bit, which is, yeah, so. But what happened was, as we prepare to do some shows, for my work at resin motherhood on social media, I was digging deeper and deeper into the science and just really enjoying that side of things. But what I realized was, I may not think that social media is that hard for me, but actually, I think I do have an addiction. And that was a hard thing for me to wake up to. Because, like I said, if I could put it away for a couple days, yeah, it wasn’t possible that I have an addiction. And so basically, all of the books and all of the best habit books, and all things like that would say, takes 30 days to make or break a habit, right. And so in any of these social media books, they said, to discover kind of, you know, what that level is or what that addiction is, take 30 days off and see what happens. So last October, October of 21, I took up my first ever scheduled break, and it was for a full 30 days. And, again, I wasn’t really sure that I needed it. But I was convinced from the science that there must be something going on, but I don’t see it. I’m not aware of it, what is happening. So I did this 30 day. And, you know, Sarah, it was much like any 30 day kind of trying to fast or break, it was pretty terrible. Beginning, you know, there was a week of bliss, and it’s fun, and it’s new and exciting. And, you know, I’m gonna go do all these other projects and read all these books and engage with my kids. And there’s a lot of good energy, right. But it’s kind of like if you do whole 30, or any other 30 day thing where you’re like, day 15 day 16,

Sarah Zylstra
you angry, angry, you know, you’re very angry.

Laura Wifler
And that’s when I realized I am going through withdrawal. So fast forward, and made it all the way through the 30 days. And I really did need the full 30 to understand, because I didn’t really feel again, some of those emotions and feelings until that day 15 or 16. So I would encourage anyone to even if you feel like I’ve got social media, I kind of know what I’m doing. I can make some little tweaks here and there. But I would encourage them to take that 30 days, and to journal throughout it. So I would just write one or two sentences. At first, it was like every day, and then, you know, I kind of did it more like three times a week as the time went on. But I think the journaling is really important to kind of see the whole picture. And then at the end of the 30 days for me personally, and I would say I have heard this anecdotally from lots and lots of friends. I felt like I had more creativity, I had more attention and focus. A lot of times I would feel like I would just be shuffling around like what was I doing my attention span was was not as good. I thought it was because I was busy. I thought it was because you know I I just engaged in a lot of different things. So I had a lot of excuses. But I realized no, actually social media is causing me to not be able to focus well, because it’s teaching my brain right to take in little bits of content and I need constant stimuli. I read a lot of books I read a lot anyway, but I read a ton more books. So there was some really great things that came out of that. And before I returned, a dear friend advised me and said write down before you return, how you want to engage with social media. So don’t do that. Don’t come back to social and be like I’m here without really having reaped the benefits of taking that 30 day fast. So for me now, I take most weekends off not every single one but I do take most weekends Saturday and Sunday off I delete the app on Friday. It’s very healthy and helpful for me. And I will also I will also take a month off each year I’ve kind of decided so for me it’s a little tricky of like when that’s going to be it’s going to change every year but I have friends who every January they just start with taking social reading off their phone, or every June or July, I’ll probably do a summer fast from social media. And that’s just again to kind of reset. Or if you have big projects going off on at work, or a big family event, or different things like that, maybe saying, Hey, I know that I want to be fully engaged in focus with my family. And I’m gonna just delete all of my apps and be fully present in my real life at this time. And I think that it just takes away that little nagging like, hey, come check me, Hey, can you think you can manage it? And I really did think, oh, I can say no. But I realized how often I was saying yes, without realizing it. So that’s so

Sarah Zylstra
interesting. Do you like during the week, do you have rules for yourself, like, I’ll go on, or like, I put it to bed at night, or I, you know, yeah, can be up for 15 minutes at a time or, you know, things like that. Yeah,

Laura Wifler
I don’t have any during the day. I know, I have lots of friends who you know, don’t sleep with their phones in their room, I wish I could tell you, I just want to be honest, I wish I had something more noble to share. But one big thing that has helped me is that if I want to buy something that I see and influence or share, because I really believe I’m so helped by when influencers share a pair of jeans, you know, because I want to buy jeans, and I’m like, those are cute, I will buy those. But instead of purchasing them straight from the app, the moment I saw them, I’ll just take a screenshot of the the title and name and the link. And then if you know in a week, I still want those jeans, or I still want that pan that really cool, you know, cookie pan or whatever they’ve shown, I can go back and I can make the purchase at that time and go and you know, it forces me to kind of do research to think about it. If it’s something bigger talk with my husband, you know, things like that. So that’s one guardrail that’s in place so that I’m not just spending money because I realized I was probably just buying a lot of knick knack II things that in the moment look really cool. It’s like infomercials, you know?

Sarah Zylstra
Yes.

Laura Wifler
So that’s probably one of the bigger boundaries, but during the week, not too much, but taking off the weekends has been really huge to give me two full days of relief. So

Sarah Zylstra
yeah, that’s awesome. Do you notice a difference in your life now versus like, sort of before the fast and before when you were? before you’ve even done the research, like when you were just floating along? Like is that now you’re more intentional? Does that make a difference? Do you think in the amount of influence that social media has over you?

Laura Wifler
I would like to think so Sarah, maybe I need to take a 30 day fast to really learn. But I would say absolutely being more intentional and more aware of what’s going on online has definitely, it’s just like getting educated in anything, right? We educate ourselves and exercise, we educate ourselves in food, we educate ourselves, and what kind of medicines to take. And thus far, many of us have failed to educate ourselves on social media. And that is like, what I want to campaign to do is for people to say, as much as I want to learn about taking care of my physical health, I also want to learn about what my mental and emotional health looks like through social media. And anytime, you know, knowledge is power that say, Yeah, and so I think anytime we have that understanding and knowledge, we are going to engage more wisely, I’m more willing to put it in a drawer sometimes when my kids are home. Because again, I don’t have the self control, I’ll put in a drawer upstairs in my bedroom, so that I can be fully present with them. So I think, definitely taking that inventory taking that time, for me really taught me that, oh, this has more power over my life than I want it to. And yet I still enjoy it. And I still think there are good things from it. And so how do I enjoy that the way that I might enjoy any other activity that shouldn’t consume my whole life?

Sarah Zylstra
It makes me think we could we could even widen that out a step to using our phones in general. There’s a lot of stuff that I’m looking at randomly on my phone. That doesn’t need to be with me all the time. So probably we could take some of these principles and also apply to like, any phone interaction?

Laura Wifler
I think so. And I think with a lot of the research, you know, it’s not just social media that’s designed with dopamine hits, it’s your whole phone. It’s the whole thing. So I think anytime you can put that phone away in a drawer, you know, considering it on Sabbath or evenings, I think those are just really wise ideas. Because the same way we hop on Facebook mindlessly, or probably hopping on our phone to do whatever it is Wordle or, you know, like looking through pictures or shopping on Amazon. Yeah, certainly wise.

Sarah Zylstra
Is there enough? You must think there is Is there enough redeeming factors on social media to stay?

Laura Wifler
I do think there is spoiler alert. Yes. But

Sarah Zylstra
I know we’ve been writing today right like you did the month on And you were like, I love my life more right? Or you take your weekends off and you’re like, I’m more engaged. I’m, I’m living better when I’m unplugged. So.

Laura Wifler
Well, I had a friend tell me the other day that one of the reasons why someone didn’t come back on it is because they fell too in love with their real life. Oh, they never came back to social media, right? Isn’t that beautiful? They felt they just feel too much in love with their real life. And it is beautiful. And I thought my a monster a half life. And that’s where I, I go back a lot to personal conscience with this topic, and really, really believe that the answer is going to be a little bit different for everyone. And I do believe that there are great redeeming wonderful things about social media, partially because almost 100% Because I’ve experienced them personally. One great thing is finding people who perhaps you would never connect with my daughter has a very rare genetic disease. No one in the world is like her. But yeah, I have met 50 other families who have children that are somewhat similar through the power of social media. And we connect and talk about how our children are doing, they live all over the globe, there is no way that I would have the encouragement and camaraderie if I did not have access to social media. In addition, I can think of friends that I have met that have become true, real friends. I mean, Sarah, I think that you and I, I don’t even know maybe it’s social media, maybe it’s just online. But there are true real friendships of women that I have met in real life. And I Vox with and I talk with, and I would say these women have helped shape the way that I think they have pushed me towards the Lord, they have taught me what it looks like to be a faithful woman and the spaces that I am in and it is irreplaceable, those relationships. And so I think we cannot say social media is all terrible and an awful. I think for some people, the right answer will be not to be on it. I do really believe that you do not need social media to be faithful. But you can be faithful while using social media. And that is I think the difference that we have to start asking is okay, so what does it look like to be faithful online? And that’s, I think modeling a lot of the stuff that we were talking about earlier, and this whole book and this whole series that we’re doing here, that’s what this is designed to help us discover.

Sarah Zylstra
Yes, can you my very last question is if people I know you at risk and motherhood did a series on this as well, is there is that still up? Can people find that if they want to go listen, where would they find that?

Laura Wifler
Well, thank you for asking. It’s rhythm motherhood.com forward slash social media. So you’ll find it pretty easy. Or you can go anywhere podcasts are streamed and just scroll through and it’ll be a couple series back but click there and you can start listening.

Sarah Zylstra
Okay, awesome. Laura, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. This is really fun.

Unknown Speaker
Absolutely. Yes.

Laura Wifler
It was very fun anytime. Let’s do it.

Sarah Zylstra
Okay, sounds good.