Ground-Level Gospel Culture

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T. J. Tims
Paul says when I saw that their conduct is not in step with the truth of the gospel. So he was looking at the social reality in the room, so to speak, through the lens of gospel doctrine and noticing that the culture did not, you know, cohere with the doctrine. So it’s a way of seeing first and fourth because I only say that because I, I really like you know, techniques. Give me some steps. Give me some, if you do this, then this will happen. Yeah, but first, I have to see differently

Ray Ortlund
Welcome back to your not crazy gospel sanity for young pastors. I am here with a very special guest. I’m Ray ortlund. But I’m with Pastor TJ Tim’s who is lead pastor of Emanuel church in Nashville. TJ, we’re, we’re overjoyed to have you here.

T. J. Tims
Oh, man, it is a privilege. Yeah, this is great. Thanks for having me on taking a big risk is could really go sideways?

Ray Ortlund
I don’t think so. Not with you involved me a different story. Now what we want to do in this episode is think out loud together, about gospel culture at a ground level, because the pastors and others who are sharing this with us who are listening right now, who doesn’t want to be part of beauty? Yes. Who doesn’t want to be part of safety and gentleness and magnificence, human magnificence? That’s what every church is meant to be by the grace of God. So we all want this. And we’re all wondering, how do we get there? Yeah. How do we get traction? And so I’d like us to talk about that today. Plus, you are my successor at Emanuel church. So actually, what we can talk about as well is what

T. J. Tims
must be crazy

Ray Ortlund
is how gospel culture can can be passed to the second generation of a church. Yeah. So that it’s not just a phase, but something that gets even richer and deeper and better. Yeah. Okay. TJ, when we talk about gospel doctrine, gospel culture, what are we talking about?

T. J. Tims
Well, the simplest place I think, to go in Scripture is to Romans 15. Seven. Yeah, therefore welcome one another, as Christ has welcomed you for the glory of God. So welcome one another. I mean, that’s gospel culture. That’s the, the horizontal dimension of grace. And as crushes welcomed you, I mean, there’s the vertical gospel doctrine coming down to us from heaven. I mean, I think that’s basically what we’re talking about welcome of Christ, translating into the welcome of one another.

Ray Ortlund
Yeah. I am so fascinated by Romans 15. Seven. Because he pulls so many significant things together in one verse, Therefore, welcome one another, as Christ has welcomed you for the glory of God. So where can the glory of God be seen in the world today? We can see it at the Grand Canyon, the Swiss Alps and so forth, but we can also see it by getting in our cars Sunday morning and driving down to church. Yeah. And what do we see there? What of the glory of God do we see? We see people welcoming one another into their reality. This is not saying the verse does not say, say hi to one another, as you’re walking in from the parking lot to the sanctuary. Yeah, that’s right. It doesn’t work. Because you can’t say, say hi to one another. As Christ said, hi to you. For the glory of God. He did a lot more than that. And that’s right. Yeah. He said, I want you in my heart. He pulled us in TJ, those four words, Christ has welcomed you. This is in Romans 15. And Paul is summarizing and forwards all that glorious and robust theology of the first major section of the book of Romans when he explains gospel doctrine, Christ has welcomed you. Christ has not just tolerated us. That’s right. He has welcomed us. And that changes how we treat one another how we perceive one another. So in in a gospel centered church, we have not only great theology, but we also have magnificent relationship, where we’re saying to one another with our words in our lives and our attitudes, I am so glad to pull you into my life, I would feel I would feel impoverished if you were not in my life.

T. J. Tims
Yes. And as you just pointed out, Paul attaches the ultimate purpose of reality to what’s happening, their glory, the glory of God, and it’s not like there’s a plan B. This is a one alternative alongside of others. I mean, it’s really similar to what you Is His commands a new commandment, John 1334 and 35. By this, all men would know you’re my disciples, but your love for one another, as if to say, here is the mark of my love in the world, your love for one another.

Ray Ortlund
Okay, that prompts me to remember what’s at stake. What we’re not talking about when we consider gospel culture is a glaze of superficial niceness and poured onto the surface of robust, serious Christianity. But we’re saying that gospel doctrine creates gospel culture such that gospel culture is just as much a matter of authority as his gospel doctrine. That’s right. That’s right. And I mean, we can go so far as to say, as you have said, that gospel doctrine minus gospel culture is actually hypocrisy. We can undo our preaching yes with our unwelcoming or unloving and not even realize it and that’s right. Francis Schaeffer used to speak of the two orthodoxies orthodoxy of doctrine and orthodoxy of communities. They’re so intertwined inseparably. So yeah, gospel culture is, is the is the glory, of gospel doctrine, being made visible and experienceable and real to people in the beauty of human

T. J. Tims
relationships? Yes. And I think, you know, to get into our ground level, how do we cultivate this at the ground level? Gospel culture really is first and foremost in the pastor a way of seeing in Galatians, two, which, you know, John Stott called the most dramatic moment in the New Testament, when the Apostle Paul publicly confronts the apostle Peter about his hypocrisy is certainly the most awkward moment in the New Testament. Paul says, when I saw that their conduct is not in step with the truth of the gospel. So he was looking at the social reality in the room, so to speak, through the lens of gospel doctrine and noticing that the culture did not, you know, cohere with the doctrine. So it’s a way of seeing first and fourth, because I only say that because I, I really like you know, techniques. Give me some steps. Give me some, if you do this, then this will happen. Yeah. But first, I have to see differently. I have to actually look be able to look around me and see things through the lens of the gospel,

Ray Ortlund
TJ, I’ve never seen that. So clearly, Paul says, but when I saw he had eyes, he had a filter. He had categories with which to perceive what was actually happening. Yeah. My goodness, and Galatians two, has been messing with me for 40 years. It’s amazing. Oh, yeah. And it deserves a lifetime of thoughtful consideration, yes, and meditation. When Paul confronts Peter, he does not say to him, you need to work on your manners, if you need to polish things up because you could be more courteous to these Gentile believers that have entered in what he says to Peter and effect is, You are betraying the doctrine of justification by faith alone? Yes, I do not know the Fae that gospel. Yes, he, Peter was in the Gospels. Peter betrayed Christ, fearful for his physical survival. There in Antioch, according to Galatians. Two, Peter betrayed Christ, again, fearful for his social survival. Fearful that his preaching invitations would be canceled, that his status, his celebrity status as a pastor would be diminished. That’s a very real temptation for every pastor. Yes, it is. Yes,

T. J. Tims
it is. And I think part of the part of what helps me to cultivate gospel culture real time is just this sense of this awareness that I meant to be looking around. And basically asking myself the question, is this a gospel culture environment? I mean, what’s actually happening in the room taking responsibility? In other words for the social reality,

Ray Ortlund
TJ that is so profound. In other words, okay, so I’m a pastor, I walk into church on Sunday morning, I walk into the sanctuary. Maybe it’s 10 or 15 minutes before the service. I’m greeting people and I’m sensing what’s in the room. Yes. And so you’re saying if I understand you correctly, that the primary question or what I’m putting my I’m putting my finger on the pulse of the room. I’m not thinking, well, I’ve got a ministry plan, I’m gonna go execute the service plan. Okay, fine. We have a plan. We want to be prepared and steward the moment well, but the primary question is, what am I sensing? What am I seeing? What am I perceiving? Yes. And inevitably we see people walking into church. And it’s almost clear from their body language. They feel they have to be on their best behavior. They feel they have to perform, they feel they have to look a certain way. Yes, because this is church. Now we pastors who have apostolic eyes, I saw that their conduct. We want to notice that so are it here’s a question. It’s 10 minutes before the service begins. And you’re greeting people welcoming people, your it’s, you know, you’re you’re caring for them. And you’re sensing some of them are uncomfortable, some of them obviously don’t understand how the grace of God fills this moment. Yeah, they’re walking in expecting this to be church, as they’ve defined that. They’re not walking in expecting to experience the grace of God. Yeah. So as a pastor, what, what can we do to help people turn the corner, so to speak, and dare to believe this is going to be an experience of divine grace for the undeserving? How do we help people?

T. J. Tims
Yeah, go there. Yeah. Well, it’s, I mean, in a way, it’s, it’s there, there’s a lot of right answers to this question. Because there are so many ways to welcome people in. But the sensitivity that I almost no one feels like they belong. Yeah, almost everyone feels like an imposter. And, you know, so if it’s before the service, I want to be the, really the lead greeter in the room, if I I’m looking for the person who looks like they feel the most out of place. And I want to real that person, and I want them to know that I see them. And that I think they belong there. And, of course, in the, in the service in the call to worship especially. I just want to lay out the heart of Christ to all who are weary and try to by the grace of God, knock over that objection that is going to that basically says, I don’t belong here. And it’s going to keep someone off kilter the entire time thinking, I’m on the edge of something that’s for somebody else. Yeah. And you know, who doesn’t need that? I need that. Yeah, I’m the preacher. And I knew that

Ray Ortlund
that’s right. I do to that feeling. This is for the others in the room. But not for me. That feeling can keep people from Christ himself. That’s right. We have no right. To allow that barrier. That that self invented barrier to stand. But we want gently and, and your detonating a nuclear explosion underneath that person is not going to help No, no, but gentleness and reassurance can help. We’re not going to destroy the barrier. We’re going to melt the barrier. Yeah, that’s right. And then people might dare to believe they can have Christ too. Yeah. Amen.

T. J. Tims
It helps me. I think about a verse like in First Corinthians chapter three. When Paul’s talking about what he did, and what Apollo’s did, he planted Apollo’s watered, but God gives the growth. And he goes on to say that, that you are God’s field, God’s building. One of the things that really helps me cultivate gospel culture is to deeply receive from the start, this is God’s work. And he is he is doing his work. And I am making a very real contribution. I don’t want to diminish that it’s the most serious thing going on in my life participating with God as a fellow worker. Wow. Yeah. But at the end of the day, I was so moved recently to see a at the at the bottom of a memorial to John and Charles Wesley and Westminster Cathedral is a quote from Charles Wesley. And he says, God buries his workmen, but continues his work. So I’m swept up in I’m caught up in something far more profound than just what I can accomplish in my own lifetime. I’m participating in a work that is so massive, only God can undertake it. And so here’s how that helps me on a Sunday morning. I’m looking around. I’m not actually trying to generate the energy. I’m just trying to join in with what God has already done. doing. And part of what that means is actually pointing out what God is already doing. So it’s not uncommon. For instance, here’s a great way to cultivate gospel culture, to notice that God has done something in someone’s life this week. And maybe they tell you that before the service starts, and then before the sermon to, you know, kind of lovingly embarrass them a little, not not really embarrass them, but point out this wonderful evidence of grace that has taken place and recount the wonderful deeds of the Lord. And it’s like the form of reality in the room changes. Yes, all of a sudden, God is not there’s not a distance between us and what the Lord is doing. We have actually entered into reality with God with the awareness of that. That’s glorious. Yeah. So I mean, really, we’re just gospel culture is what Jesus is doing. I mean, he has not stopped extending his welcome. And we are just joining in there with him and noticing

Ray Ortlund
Yes, what he’s doing, he has not stopped extending his welcome. Well, everything. We’re staking everything on that. Yes. Now, there are discouraged pastors listening to us right now who weighed down deep and it might be difficult even to admit it, weighed on deep are fearing my church is God forsaken. The Lord has turned his face away. There are no evidences of grace. And I would say to that, Pastor, why didn’t you ask the Lord this week to show you with unmistakable clarity that would convince you and be reassuring? One, evidence of God’s grace and one evidence of God’s presence and God’s purpose of glory, for your church? Dare to ask the Lord for it. If your church is not God forsaken, as the Lord to help you see that? Yes. And then give yourself permission to rejoice Yes, over that. And then you’ll see something else. And then you’ll see something else. Yeah, but you’re their pastor, you’re there in that church. Maybe it isn’t healthy. But neither is it God forsaken. And you are in that church as an unmistakably wonderful token of God’s purpose of grace for that church. God is not wasting your life. God has sent you there to that church in its need. And he sent you and your need, because Christ has enough grace for you and for your church. Why not? In defiance of every discouragement. Dare to believe that? And ask the Lord to prove it to you because as you said, TJ the Lord is the one doing the work. Yeah. Okay. So you’re talking about something of real magnitude here. I mean, it’s reducible to moment by moment reality in the room 10 minutes before a service. Right. Okay. But it’s also intergenerational. And talk to us about how Emanuel church walked through a pastoral succession in 2017, at 19. Yeah. The point being we wanted not just to preserve gospel culture, but to enrich it and deepen it. Yeah. Well, it,

T. J. Tims
I think you just hit on one of the really, one of the things that really worked is that it did take three years. Oh, yeah. And, you know, maybe some of that’s a size dynamic thing depends on how many people you have to take from point A to point B. That’s true. But when we’re talking about a pastoral succession, I mean, essentially, what we’re talking about is the handing over of hearts and affections. And those those things don’t change quickly. And they shouldn’t. That wouldn’t be a good sign. Yeah, it takes so it takes a while, I would, I would say that was one of the healthy things, it was a non pressuring. And it allowed for the discovery of, you know, affections and respect. And I felt as if I wasn’t on the hot seat, you know, to where he better perform, that people had time to get to know me, I had time to get to know them. I mean, here’s something that doesn’t get talked about often. I needed time to discover that this was my calling. I mean, I knew it at one level, but until the people of God embrace me and call me and recognize me as the next lead pastor, then I can’t feel fully affirmed in that role. So that’s a that took some time. I think the the gospel culture aspect of it was it was gentle. And one of the things that I think so there’s there’s getting to a here’s, here’s something we discovered in hindsight wasn’t Maybe it wasn’t such a great planning, but we didn’t know we’d never done this, you know, the end goal really isn’t when the handoff happens. And you know, now TJ is installed and re celebrated. Then you have a whole nother push on the other side of that. So I think we were we maybe we put the goal line in the wrong place. But the Lord, you know, he just helped us and just showered the whole thing with grace and mercy and gave us more energy than we deserved. But part of what helped turn the corner because every pastoral succession is like turning the corner, you know, part of what helped turn the corner is we had what I still think is the best party I’ve ever attended. And we celebrated what God had done it through and with a range Annie ortlund at Emanuel Nashville, and everybody, I think it’s safe to say everybody within the sphere of our ministry felt we have really rejoiced in in the Lord for Ranjani we have celebrated Ranjani and that you need that subtleness of conscience to know that you’ve taken care of the people you love, so that you can turn the corner and yes, sort of, you know, lock arms with another lead pastor, because it’s so personal.

Ray Ortlund
So so you’re free at heart to say goodbye. Yes. And, and embrace the new era. Yeah, Acts

T. J. Tims
chapter 20. You know, they embraced Paul and kissed him being sorrowful most of all that they wouldn’t say his face again. You know, so we need we need that. That’s the way that we think when we’re noticing the social, you know, reality in the room and how the gospel is shaping it.

Ray Ortlund
I was struck to at we didn’t call them congregational meetings. Yeah. I wanted to sign up. Oh, my goodness. It’s like, okay, go to the dentist. We call them family gatherings. Yeah. Now that sounds like something I’d like to go to. We had multiple family gatherings along the way. Lots of q&a. Lots of open microphone, lots of prayer. Incremental significant information along the way. Incremental decision making. Yes. So you were elevated from a system pastor to associate pastor, from associate pastor to lead pastor elect, yes. From lead pastor elect to lead pastor. Yeah. And each one was by a congregational vote. So the buy in went deeper and deeper and wider and wider. And it was, it was just glorious.

T. J. Tims
I remember guys saying, How many times do I have to vote on you?

Ray Ortlund
But it was so helpful. It was great. God was so merciful. Okay, well, we’re thankful to crossway books for sponsoring you’re not crazy gospel Saturday for young pastors. We’re thankful to the gospel Coalition for providing the platform for the podcast. TJ, what’s a crossway title

T. J. Tims
that you would like everybody to know about? Yeah. Well, almost everybody I know, at least has heard of Dana Portland’s book, gentle and lowly, the heart of Christ for sinners and suffers. I think a very important book is the follow up book that Dan has written deeper. Because that theology that we love of the gentle and lowly heart of Christ us. We want to we want to walk through that doorway. Dane opened it up. And now Dane is essentially saying, let me help you walk deeper interest walk through that door. Yeah. I can’t think of anything more urgent. Really?

Ray Ortlund
Yeah. So if Jesus is gentle and lowly, how does that reality help us grow? And in deeper Dain shows that we don’t grow and change and go to a better place in life, through Supreme Self Mastery. But by just going deeper into who Jesus really is, yeah, and we’ll never touch bottom. Yeah, that’s right. So we recommend deeper by de Norland. Thanks, guys. See you again soon.