A couple days back, I had the joy of writing a brief review of Josh Harris’ new book, Dug Down Deep. Thus far in 2010, it’s easily in my top two or three favorite reads for its clarity, warmth, usefulness, and rich blend of theological truth and lived truth. I highly commend it. Since reading Dug Down Deep, I asked Josh if he would be willing to answer a couple other questions about the book. He graciously agreed, and the following is our exchange. I pray it encourages you as it did me.
TA: Brother, thank you for writing this book. I really enjoyed reading it. Tell us, why did you write this book and what are your hopes for it now that it’s published and available?
Josh: I wrote it to try and reach people who are turned off by or indifferent toward theology. I wanted to share my own story of learning the importance of building your life on truth about God. So I hope it will the first step for a lot of people of a deeper, more grounded faith and knowledge of the gospel.
TA: As I read Dug Down Deep, I thought of a number of people and categories of people that it would be useful to give a copy to. One category were the youth and youth leaders at our church. Any hopes for the book to be used with that audience? Any tips for using it with teenagers?
Josh: You know, I’ve been pleasantly surprised how many people have had that same response. They say, “I’m going to give this to my teenager,” or “I’m going to lead my youth group through this.” And that thrills me. Teens can handle doctrine—and they need it just like the rest of us. The book isn’t specifically written for teens, but I actually think that might be a benefit. I think teenagers are sometimes turned off when they feel a book is talking down to them or trying too hard to “speak their language.” So I guess I’d encourage anyone teaching teens from it to give it to them straight and let God’s truth do its work.
TA: As I read the book, I was struck by how well you blended rich theological truth with your own life story in a very conversational style. It’s kind of a “theological autobiography,” your life interpreted by God’s truth. Is that a fair assessment? What did you learn about yourself and about God as your wrote this way?
Josh: I think that is a fair assessment. Part of my way of trying to connect theological truth with people who might not be used to it, was to go back in my own story and retell my own first encounters. So I didn’t try to write as a pastor. I wrote as that guy in his early twenties who was first encountering teaching on justification, first hearing John Piper preach about God’s passion for his glory.
For those of us who are a little further along in our faith, it’s easy to forget that we haven’t always known everything we know today about God and his word. It’s been a process and journey for all of us. I found it very encouraging to revisit my own story. It was humbling. It reminded me of God’s faithfulness. And I think it has encouraged me to be patient with people I meet who are in process. God has been and continues to be patient with me, so I should do the same for others.
TA: On page 31, you write that, “Doctrine can never take the place of Jesus himself, but we can’t know him and relate to him in the right way without doctrine.” Why does knowing Jesus and knowing doctrine go together?
Josh: Doctrine is the explanation not only of how God has acted in the world, but what that means for us. You can’t truly know Jesus apart from the doctrine (or teaching) of God’s word about who he is and what his life, death and resurrection have accomplished. This is such an important point because so many people today separate truth and theology from devotion and relationship. And they can’t be separated. You can’t have one without the other.
TA: Many Christians struggle with getting the truth from God’s word from their heads down into their hearts, a struggle to not only know but to treasure and trust the word. It seems to me Dug Down Deep is a real help to people who have that struggle. What lessons have you learned from the Lord that might be helpful to people with this challenge?
Josh: I think we all struggle with this. This really is the fight of faith isn’t it? To believe God’s promises and that all he’s done in Jesus really is for us. I love to quote what CJ Mahaney taught me: “If you want to feel deeply, you need to be willing to think deeply.” Getting truth into our heart starts with meditating on truth. And I’d fill that out by saying that this thinking deeply needs to be done in dependence on the Holy Spirit and focused on the work of Christ for us. We need the Holy Spirit to set our hearts aflame with the truth we read in Scripture (Eph. 3:14-19). So prayerful, Spirit-dependent, word-centered, gospel-focused study seems to be the recipe for that head-to-heart transfer.
TA: Dug Down Deep really models how, by God’s grace, you grew both in your knowledge of the truth and in humility. What kinds of things do you practice in order to maintain a grasp on both truth and humility, to hold those things together?
Josh: There’s no better way than pastoring in a local church! Expository preaching of God’s word will deepen your grasp of biblical truth. And daily mistakes, blunders and bad sermons will keep you humble! But in all seriousness, trying to live out truth in community—and realizing how much you need other believers and how far you have to go—is such an important part of this. I’m so grateful I’m not just a writer or speaker. I love living life in a community of believers.
TA: You define “humble orthodoxy” as “standing for truth with a tear in our eye” (p. 225). What do you mean by that, and what are some ways to develop and protect this kind of humble orthodoxy?
Josh: That’s a phrase I borrowed from D. A. Carson’s description of Francis Schaeffer. I love that image and I hope to live that in my own life. It means a willingness to oppose the culture of sin around us, but doing so with the heart of our Savior. We need both the truth of Jesus and the compassion of Jesus if we would rightly represent him to a lost world.
I think we develop and protect this kind of humble orthodoxy by rooting ourselves in the gospel of grace. If you truly believe that you’ve earned nothing from God, it restrains you from self-righteousness toward others. This is just one example of why gospel-centeredness is not just a matter of being doctrinaire. It’s essential for Christian living and Christian mission and cultural engagement.
TA: One final comment and question. I loved the cartoons that illustrate the process of sanctification, starving the flesh. Great stuff. It’s the first time I’ve read either a biography or a book of theology with cartoons in it! That alone was worth the price of the book and the time to read. So, inquiring minds want to know: Any chance of writing/drawing a book of cartoons?
Josh: I’m glad you liked those. I love to doodle. I actually get in trouble with the pastors at my church for doodling during meetings. I’m trying to convince them that I listen better when I’m drawing. But, yes, I would definitely consider doing a book of cartoons. My kids keep asking me to do a children’s book. So maybe that will be the outlet.
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Thank you Josh for being such a blessing to the Lord’s Church! I’m grateful for your taking the time to do this interview.
If you’re not familiar with Josh’s ministry as a pastor and writer, you might the following links and resources helpful:
Check out his sermons at Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, MD.
You can read Josh’s blog here.
His books include:
Stop Dating the Church: Fall in Love with the Family of God
Sex Is Not the Problem (Lust Is): Sexual Purity in a Lust-Saturated World
Boy Meets Girl: Say Hello to Courtship
