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36 thoughts on “How Many Cups of Coffee Have You Had Today?”

  1. John Thomson says:

    But Justin, we don’t observe the Sabbath, nor should we.

    1. Justin Taylor says:

      Even so, I think the principle of regular rest is built into creation and our constitution by God and that it’s a wise thing to do, in some capacity.

      1. JK says:

        Justin, would you care to clarify your thoughts on the Sabbath? (Possibly in another post.)

        If you don’t think the Sabbath is a command (but rather something that is built into creation and a wise thing to do), then don’t you completely disagree with the J.R. Vassar’s position? I haven’t listened to the whole thing, but even in the first 10 minutes Vassar says that the Sabbath is in “Jesus’ top 10″.

        This is something I really wrestle with. I don’t see the New Testament commanding Sabbath rest, yet I see *many* pastors commanding their congregations to do it. If it’s not a command, then how is it not moralism at best and legalism at worst?

        I’ll try to give Vassar a fair shot by listening to the rest of his sermon, but so far, I’m completely unconvinced that Christians are to observe a physical Sabbath. Rather, I believe we are called to experience and live in light of the eternal rest found in Christ Jesus.

        Thanks for any thoughts!

        1. John Thomson says:

          JK

          Hope Justin Taylor aswrs but in the meantime a comment or two from another JT.

          Sabbath was God’s rest in creation (the seventh day. We are not told it was a rest for man in creation. There is no suggestion man should share in it. Nor is there any mention of the sabbath until Israel is redeemed from Egypt (only in redemption can we enter God’s rest). Redemption from Egypt is a type of true redemption just as Law is a shadow of the coming reality in Christ. The sabbath was instituted as the covenant sign based on redemption (Cf Ex 31:13)

          Deut 5:12-15 (ESV)
          “‘Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant, or your ox or your donkey or any of your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

          In fact, the whole point of the Law (of which Sabbath was a sign) was to bring God’s people into rest. Law was ‘do this and live’and to live was to enjoy the inheritance of ‘rest’ in the land. Thus the Sabbath was the sign of a covenant that promised a redeemed people rest in the land upon (sharing in God’s creation, rest predicated upon obedience.

          Of course the problem was the covenant, or rather the human heart. The covenant couldn’t be kept. The ‘rest’ it held out (underlined in its sabbath sign) was impossible if based on human effort. The truth was the redemption too was political not spiritual. In a word the redemption/covenant/rest were really only a type. They pointed to the redemption rest that lay in Christ. In its first instance this is gospel rest in Christ (come unto me all you who labour and I will give you rest… note, that immediately after this in the gospel is a discussion of the sabbath Matt 11,12). This rest of redemption experienced by faith presently is realized in fulness in the consummated kingdom (Hebs 3,4).

          Sabbath rest, like the covenant it belonged to, was legalistic. Rest was legalistic, it was enforced under threat of death (Nums 15). It merely pointed to gospel rest that is the converse of legalistic. Thus believers are not called to observe the Sabbath law and grace do not exist in tandem. New wine needs new wineskins. The first day of the week is not the seventh (and any one in seven simply won’t hold water). It is the day of new beginning, of resurrection. Col 2 makes it clear that those who have died with Christ have died to sabbaths.

          More could be said. Just some rapid thoughts.

          1. Randy Peoples says:

            You state: “Sabbath was God’s rest in creation (the seventh day. We are not told it was a rest for man in creation.”

            You imply that the Sabbath was created by Jesus because He was tired from all of His creative work the previous six days, instead of the reality that what He was doing was in fact creating the 4th Commandment.

            You state: “There is no suggestion man should share in it.”

            Jesus says: “Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:” So you are incorrect in your statement.

            You state: “Nor is there any mention of the sabbath until Israel is redeemed from Egypt (only in redemption can we enter God’s rest).”

            Scripture tells us about the 7th Day Sabbath in Genesis. (Gen 2:2-3 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. (3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.)

            And prior to God giving the covenant at Mt. Sinai, He was already teaching them about the Sabbath Day with the miracle of Manna. (All of Exo 16)

            Not to mention the fact that the reason that God made all the promises to Abraham was because of his obedience to God’s ways. (Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments [all 10], my statutes [holy days], and my laws [this word in the Hebrew is Torah].) You are incorrect in your statement.

            You state: “In fact, the whole point of the Law (of which Sabbath was a sign) was to bring God’s people into rest. Law was ‘do this and live’and to live was to enjoy the inheritance of ‘rest’ in the land.”

            The whole point of the Law was to teach mankind of sin.
            (Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.)
            And to convert mankind to God’s ways.
            (Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.) So once again, you are incorrect in your statement.

            You state: “Col 2 makes it clear that those who have died with Christ have died to sabbaths.”

            Where does it state this? Nowhere. What Colossians 2:17 says is that no one outside of the Body of Christ is to judge matters related to God’s ways. (The word “is” was added to the translation and should not be there. Paul is talking about the Body of Christ. Reworded for clarification, it says in Col 2:16-17:
            Let no man, but the Body of Christ, judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (17) Which are a shadow of things to come.

            To be a shadow of things to come means that these events are prophetic. And well they are, each picturing a different aspect of God’s plan of salvation. One must die to his old ways that lead to death and start keeping God’s ways that lead to life. The Sabbath Commandment is but one of those. Repentance is a requirement for eternal life.

            This is how we show God the Father that we love Him and His Son.

            1. John Thomson says:

              Randy

              Some of what you say I think is right but in a fair bit I do disagree. The issues are too big for us to be able to cover here on this thread. You seem to advocate a rigorous submission to law probably more than most. I suggest getting hold of Carson’s ‘From Sabbath to Lord’s Day’ if you wish to see more fully the position I would advocate. Perhaps read too the articles on Law suggested in this thread (Irons and Moo).

              1. Randy Peoples says:

                John
                I have a hard and fast rule to not read anything but my bible, as it relates to doctrinal issues. The bible is the Word of God, to which I’m sure you would agree, would you not? We are not allowed to add or subtract from it.

                Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you
                Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
                Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

                I also believe that the Spirit of God is able to lead me into all truth. Error is reserved for the realm of mankind. (See Gen 3 and history since.)

                Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

                I believe that you can only receive the holy Spirit if you are obedient to God.

                Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
                Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

                Obedience to God is a requirement for eternal life. No rebel, as satan is, will inherit eternal life.

                Mat 19:17-19 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (18) He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, (19) Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

                So when I hear a man preach from the pulpit that you can choose what day is the Sabbath Day, I am called to address it. He is preaching sin. Sin is the transgression of God’s law.

                1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

                You seem to be implying that God’s law is null and void and not to be kept any more. Well, sin is the transgression of God’s Law. If there is no law of God in force to break, then there is no sin. If there is no sin, why do you need Jesus? Why do you need a savior?

                Jesus said that he didn’t come to do away with the law or the prophets (Matt 5:17-19) and also that we are live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. (Luk 4:4)

                God calls for repentance. The grace of God is not a license to be an unrepentant sinner.

              2. Nick Mackison says:

                Randy, the “Sabbath was created for man” as a pointer to the rest promised in Christ. Christ is the fulfilment of the Sabbath and to go back to judging others over the keeping of days is to miss the significance of the Christ event (Col.2:16).

                There is not a single text in the NT that commands Sabbath keeping as a seventh-day rest (or a first-day rest for that matter). The Sabbath we keep is a perpetual one, as we rest from our own works in Christ.

                So far is Sabbath-observance from being a NT principle that the apostles would label those as Judaizers who damn non-Sabbatarian Christians. Again, read Colossians 1&2 on this.

  2. Jared O says:

    I guess I have to watch the video to know what it has to do with coffee? JT, you’re requiring so much of us!

    1. Ben Cheney says:

      +1 … can someone please explain what the video has to do with coffee? I don’t have time to watch a 48-minute sermon.

  3. Marsisme says:

    Read Abraham Joshua Heschel’s book ‘The Sabbath’ – a truly wonderful read

  4. Adam Ford says:

    Zero. Since you asked.

  5. Daryl Little says:

    Great points, great principle. I need more rest, clearly. I need Sabbath.

    What I don’t need is another law. So he lost me when, in bringing it “home” he raised the issue of obedience.
    I don’t think it’s about obedience. I think it’s about trusting God, and about the real need for actual rest.

    Making it about obedience is, in my mind, the same thing as saying that giving 9% (or any other number less than 10%, plus interest when you miss…) is sin.

    But still, as I say, great points, great principle.

  6. Randy Peoples says:

    The Sabbath Day was created “in the beginning” by Jesus. John the Apostle wrote:
    Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    The “Word” that became flesh was Jesus.
    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God (The Father), and the Word (Jesus) was God.
    Joh 1:2 The same (Jesus) was in the beginning with God (The Father).
    Joh 1:3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him (Jesus) was not any thing made that was made.

    It was Jesus who created all things that were made. It was Jesus that rested on the 7th Day of creation and sanctified it (made it holy).
    Mar 2:27 And he (Jesus) said unto them (the Pharisees), The Sabbath (7th Day) was made (created) for man (mankind to rest), and not man for the sabbath:
    Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man (who created it-Jesus) is Lord (G2962-supreme in authority) also of the sabbath.

    Jesus is the master, controller and authority of all creation, which includes the 4th Commandment/Sabbath Day. He has all power in heaven and earth. (Matt 28:18)

    Mr. Vassar clearly understands when the Sabbath is, from his explanation of the Jewish community of NYC closing up their businesses in obedience to the 4th Commandment.
    He asks this question: “What’s the best day for your Sabbath?”

    As if we get to decide which day the Sabbath Commandment is. This makes us the creator of the Sabbath and we are our own god. Deciding what is “best” for us would be like saying: “Honey, I know you are my wife and I made all of these vows to love only you, but I ran into this really awesome young honey today and I’ve decided that I want to sleep with her. I’m sorry, but this is “what’s best” for me.

    How is that going to go over with your wife? She’s going to divorce you, isn’t she? How do you suppose that attitude is going over with Jesus? He’s going to dump you for whoring around on Him, just like your wife would dump you for whoring around on her. (And just like He dumped and divorced ancient Israel for rejecting His ways.) (Jer 3:8)

    Which day is the Sabbath Day is not your choice; it certainly isn’t in God’s eyes. He did give mankind free will and you do have the choice to either obey Him or reject Him.

    I did agree with something Mr. Vassar said. I’ll leave you with his words.

    “We need to repent and we need to obey. It is a command.”

    Amen! Repent.
    1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
    Exo_20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
    Deu_5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
    Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

  7. we serve coffee at our church! On Sundays! Nothing wrong with that!

  8. John Thomson says:

    ‘“What’s the best day for your Sabbath?”

    That’s the problem isn’t it? We cannot speak of ‘your sabbath’. The sabbath rest of creation (the seventh day) was ‘God’s rest’. By grace we are invited to enter ‘my rest'(God’s rest, Hebs 3:11). Thus for Israel the sabbaths are ‘my sabbaths’ (Ex 31).

    We cannot choose the ‘rest’ or its consitions for it is God’s rest which he invites us to share. The whole notion is rebellious (not consciously but in principle).

  9. Marsisme says:

    However, Auburn Wa Church, it is wrong if on Sunday mornings, only decaf coffee is served!

  10. Randy Peoples says:

    Nick,
    You claim that there is no commandment in the NT to keep the Sabbath. Jesus said that He didn’t come to demolish the Sabbath or any other commandment. Anyone who will break one and teach would be least in the Kingdom. (If they make it at all.)
    Jesus said: Mat 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Jesus said not to even think that He did away with God’s Law. You claim that He did. Please provide evidence that Jesus reversed His statement here. Show one verse where Jesus takes the 10 Commandments to 9 or 8.
    As for your statement: “There is not a single text in the NT that commands Sabbath keeping as a seventh-day rest (or a first-day rest for that matter).”
    Have you not read?
    Heb 4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
    Are you a people of God? This verse right here shows you are wrong, don’t you agree?
    Heb 4:10 for whoever has entered God’s [SABBATH] rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
    God gave the 7th Day Sabbath Commandment for mankind to keep, just as Jesus did at creation.
    Heb 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
    This verse tells us to make effort to keep the Sabbath, so as to not fall into the same type of disobedience that ancient Israel did.
    Also, Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, teaching the disciples what to look for as signs of the end of the age and His imminent return said this:
    Mat 24:20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.
    If the Sabbath has been done away, why did He include this statement in His discourse?

    What are “Judaizers”?

    1. Nick Mackison says:

      Randy,
      The big question relates to what it means for Christ to “fulfill” the law and the prophets in Matt. 5:17-19. Not one jot or tittle from the law would pass until it was fulfilled. Until the law was fulfilled, it had to be kept in its entirety. Now in Christ, the law has undergone an eschatological transformation. For instance, if all foods are now clean, as the NT writers specifically say, then are these writers guilty of relaxing even the “least” demands of the law? If we are to assume that the apostles got it right, and if we are now free to eat pork and shellfish, we have to acknowledge that the law has undergone some kind of radical change in the person of Christ.

      Indeed it has and we now we read in Rom. 10:4 that “Christ is the end of the law”. The law has reached its telos or culmination in him. Christ himself embodies all that the law was typifying and foreshadowing. The Sabbath is merely a shadow of the reality found in Christ. Again, read Col. 2:16 and Rom. 14:1-5. According to these texts, the Sabbath has been abrogated and fulfilled in Christ, just as the dietary requirements, circumcision, the Jewish calendar, etc have all been fulfilled.

      The Hebrews passages you offer contain absolutely no reference to a 7th day Sabbath for Christians. They speak of the rest we enjoy now in Christ from our own works and also speak of eternal rest held forth in the eschaton.

      Regarding the Olivet Discourse, these events were fulfilled in AD70 when the Romans scraped Jerusalem off the face of the earth. What happened to Jerusalem was a prolepsis of the final judgement, but all was fulfilled with regard to what Christ said would happen to Jerusalem.

      Judaizers are those who seek to undermine the sufficiency of Christ by insisting that New Covenant believers must observe the Mosaic Law for salvation. To insist on Sabbath-keeping for Christians (with the warning that they are sinning against God if they don’t) is perilously close to the error condemned by the apostle Paul in Galatians.

      I plead with you dear brother, to embrace the sufficiency of Jesus and let go of types and shadows. A superb review of a recent 7th Day Adventist publication can be found here:http://www.restorationgj.com/id217.htm

      God bless
      Nick

      1. Randy Peoples says:

        Nick,
        The Law and the Prophets that Jesus was talking about in the Sermon on the Mount is what we now would call the Old Testament. There are laws for mankind to live by, which Jesus, when He came into the flesh, obeyed completely. There were also many, many prophecies concerning Him. Those that were to be lived out by Him when He was in the flesh, He acted out completely. Thus, he satisfied those portions of the Law and the Prophets. However, there are many laws and many prophecies that He hasn’t fulfilled yet. Hence, since there is much yet that hasn’t been fulfilled, that means that nothing has been done away.
        The prophet Isaiah said this:
        Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. [This Jesus did in his Sermon on the Mount, when He made the Law of God more difficult. He didn’t do away with it.]
        Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. [This speaks of what we call the OT and NT. You must have both to understand God’s ways.]
        You seem to be hung up on Paul’s writings, claiming that they somehow have done away with God’s laws. No such thing can be said. As a matter of fact, Peter addresses this very issue, when he stated:
        2Pe 3:14-16 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. (15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest [TWIST], as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
        Paul didn’t change anything and he certainly didn’t have the authority to change anything. However, his writings, which Peter said are difficult to understand, are being used by people who are unlearned and unstable twist to their own destruction. This is what you and many, many others are doing.
        Hebrews 3 and 4 warn people to not follow ancient Israel’s evil conduct and disobedience. Claiming that Hebrews 4:9 is not for Christians is like saying that the chapter in the BMV handbook related to STOP signs should be ignored and rejected. This is folly at its worst. It says what it says and it is God’s Word. You reject it and the other scriptures at your own peril.
        The problem that you (and others) have is that you are still in the flesh and hostile to God’s ways and you cannot please God.
        Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
        Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity [HOSTILE] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
        Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

        James wrote that if you break one, you have broken them all and are in transgression. If you reject any one of the 10 Commandments, you are in rebellion. (Jas 2:8-11)
        God is not playing games. He is serious about what He says. He said to keep the Commandments. What this really comes down to is that you (and others) don’t want to obey God. You don’t want to “remember the Sabbath” because of your own fleshly traditions of men. The apostle John had something to say about people who reject God’s Commandments, when he wrote:
        1Jn 2:3-4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
        You reject the Sabbath Commandment, that makes you are a liar and the truth of God does not reside in you. He said it, not me, so don’t get hacked at me for quoting it.
        The 10 Commandments are to be kept to inherit eternal life. Jesus said so Himself. (Matt 19:17-24)
        Regarding the link you provided regarding the 7th Day Adventist publication, I previously posted that I don’t read other people’s stuff. I read my bible exclusively, as it relates to doctrinal issues. I’m not a 7th Day Adventist, never have been one and certainly will never be one.
        Repentance is a requirement for salvation. You either bend your knees willingly to God and you will be in the First Resurrection or He will bend them for you in the 2nd Resurrection. It’s everyone’s choice, just as it was Adam and Eve and every else since.
        Be well. –Randy

  11. Randy you said:
    “Regarding the link you provided regarding the 7th Day Adventist publication, I previously posted that I don’t read other people’s stuff. I read my bible exclusively, as it relates to doctrinal issues.”

    Does that mean there are no place in your life for the teachers and elders that Christ has instituted for his church? With all due respect, you could do with reading some of them and until take the time to read some of the wisdom God has imparted to others, you are failing to function as a member of Christ’s body. Furthermore, discussions with others will prove fruitless if you are not teachable.

    Secondly, you say that there are some things in the Old Covenant that have not been fulfilled by Christ. Excepting the new heavens and the new earth, that statement is plain wrong. You have not dealt with the passages in Paul at all respecting the passing of the food laws, special days, etc. If the law is all of a piece, as James says (and as you quote) then how has only “some” of it been fulfilled?

    Thirdly, why did you insert the phrase “10 Commandments” in James? He spoke about the whole law, not just the decalogue. In any respect, we are now to be judged by the law of liberty in Christ, not the Decalogue (which was given to Israel).

    The prologue to the Decalogue was, “I am the LORD your God, who brought you up out of Egypt out of the house of slavery”. At the risk of stating the obvious, God didn’t deliver us gentiles from Egypt. The Mosaic Law was a covenant document delivered to Israel in a state of infancy. When Israel failed to stay faithful to the covenant they represented the sinful estate of the whole of mankind (just read Romans 3).

    Randy, please listen to me, you are claiming that unless I come under the law of Moses I cannot be saved. This is the Galatian error writ large.

    I’ll leave you with the last word on this. But let me urge you to embrace the simplicity that Christ offers.

    1. Randy Peoples says:

      Nick, regarding your first point, you state: “Does that mean there are no place in your life for the teachers and elders that Christ has instituted for his church?”

      I know many, many teachers and elders across this country. One traveling through the area stopped in to see my family on Monday. We had a nice talk about spiritual matters. I know who they are and who they aren’t. I know what deception is and what truth is. Anyone who rejects any of the 10 Commandments is not of God. Those that accept are of God.
      Psa_119:151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.
      1Jn_2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

      You state: “With all due respect, you could do with reading some of them and until take the time to read some of the wisdom God has imparted to others, you are failing to function as a member of Christ’s body.”

      Having a discussion about spiritual matters is dependent on if God is dealing with them at this time. For those on this blog/forum, I know I’m talking to a wall, for the most part.(I have hope for some.) People who reject the Law of God are subverted.
      Tit 3:9-11 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. (10) A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; (11) Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

      I already realize that you are a going to read verse 9 and say, “see, he is talking about people who are teaching the law and Paul was teaching that the law is done away”. Well, that isn’t what is being talked about. Jesus didn’t do away with the Law (Matt 5:17) and Paul didn’t speak against it.
      Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

      You state: “Furthermore, discussions with others will prove fruitless if you are not teachable.”

      This goes both ways, Nick.

    2. Randy Peoples says:

      Nick, As to your 2nd point about the Old Covenant.
      A covenant is a contract. A contract has 4 elements. The 2 most important are:
      1. An offer
      2. An acceptance of the offer
      God made an offer to Israel at Mt. Sinai. Starting in Exo 20:1, He gave them His 10 Commandments, Judgments (chap 21-23) and His Statutes/Holy Days (chap 23). Israel agreed to this contract/covenant.
      Exo 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
      Offer by God and acceptance by Israel.
      This was effectively a marriage covenant God made with Israel, his Woman. (Jer 31:32 …although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD.)
      They pledged their obedience and within 2 months, they committed adultery and went into whoredom by bowing to a golden calf idol. (Exo 32)
      This covenant was based on physical protection and physical blessings. This covenant is the same covenant that God made with Adam and Eve. [Hos 6:7 But like Adam they transgressed the covenant; there they dealt faithlessly with me.]
      So He divorced Israel for their whoredom. [Jer 3:6-8 The LORD said to me in the days of King Josiah: “Have you seen what she did, that faithless one, Israel, how she went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and there played the whore? (7) And I thought, ‘After she has done all this she will return to me,’ but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. (8) She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce. Yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but she too went and played the whore.]
      In verse 6, today we call that “green tree” a “Christmas tree”, which God forbid Israel to be involved with. [Jer 10:2-5 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the gentiles, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. (3) For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. (4) They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. ]

      So once He divorced Israel (and Judah her sister) completely, He made a “new covenant” with a new Woman, the Church, the new Israel of God.
      Gal 6:16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
      And He is looking for a pure, chaste virgin who will not go whoring around on Him again.
      2Co 11:2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

      In the New Covenant, the Laws of God are still in full force and effect. The change to the Covenant wasn’t a deletion of God’s Laws, but predicated on better PROMISES, such as forgiveness of sins and eternal life for those who overcome their flesh.
      Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
      It has nothing to do with His Laws, but rather better promises.

      Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
      There was a fault in the Covenant.

      Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
      The fault was the people, not with God, His Laws or His original Promises.

      Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
      Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

      If, under the New Covenant, the Laws of God are done away with, as you are teaching, then why is this verse in the bible (twice-Jer 31)? If they are done away, then this verse shouldn’t be in the bible at all. However, they were never done away with. Through the power of the Spirit, God writes His Laws in our heart, so we will qualify to be the chaste virgin He expects at His Marriage Supper.

      If Israel, His wife, was divorced for not obeying her Husband, that is, keeping His laws, then how is it that He is going to marry an even more whorish woman who rejects His Laws out of hand?

      The answer is that He won’t. You will be one of these: Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

      Your lack of understanding Paul’s writings is leading you right into satan’s trap of destruction.

      Come and be a chaste virgin. Repent!

  12. Daryl Little says:

    Randy,

    So I assume then, that you don’t clip your sideburns, you have parapets on the roof of your house and you tithe the total 25 or 26% (or whatever it is) throughout the year.

    Besides not eating shellfish and never touching your wife (even a hand on her shoulder) during her monthly period.

    It’s not so simple as saying the entire OT law is still in effect. Especially since Jesus fulfilled it all.

    1. Randy Peoples says:

      Daryl,
      This shows your ignorance to God’s Law and what you term OT. It’s either that or arrogance. I’ll let God decide. In either case, you will still pay the penalty.

      This all boils down to two things—one is the deception of satan.
      Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

      And hostility to God’s Law because you are still in the flesh.
      Rom 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

      Don’t feel too bad. Adam and Eve had the same problem. And they had God walking in the Garden with them!
      My argument is that you reject out of hand the 4th Commandment, which you would call a suggestion. Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 are penal clause chapters. They are a list of penalties for violating God’s Laws. Sabbath breaking individually was punishable by death. Sabbath breaking as a nation got that nation put into national captivity. This is but one law.
      You know how I know that the penal clause (and therefore God’s Laws) and still in full force? Because this nation is under the control of a stranger, as God said it would if His people rejected Him and His ways.
      Deu 28:43 The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.
      This isn’t by accident. God is going to destroy this country. And it will be a marvelous sight to behold. Unless the people repent, which I don’t see happening.

      This is how I know God’s Law is still in effect. You have a law of God and a penalty for breaking that Law. You want to engage in adultery. Fine, God says, here is a wonderful case of the clap. Or herpes. How about syphilis? You want to engage in sodomy? Fine, says God. My penalty for this sin will be AIDS. You want to eat pig (which the NT nowhere allows for), then you go right ahead. And the worms and parasites that infest your body will slowly kill you. I know of a couple of colon therapy specialists that claim that they have never seen someone with Cancer who didn’t also have a massive parasite problem. God forbid the eating of unclean animals. He forbids the eating of blood. (Or do you reject that one also?) You want to do it, go ahead. Don’t let me get in the way of your happiness. Just don’t go to God in prayer asking for healing when you are dying from something that you brought on yourself because you wouldn’t obey God in the first place.

      You’ve got a Law and a penalty for breaking that Law. Now if you keep the Law of Liberty, then you are free to live your life with no penalty to worry about. Oh yes, you will die eventually, because The Father appointed that all of mankind will die, but then the Judgment. But if you are obedient and have faith in the Son that paid the penalty for you and bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (overcome your flesh, in other words) and show God your faith by your works as James wrote, then you will be in the First Resurrection and have everlasting life. If not, if you don’t want to be obedient children, then you will suffer the penalties for your sins and come up in the Second Resurrection, at which point you will be ashamed of yourselves when God teaches you the truth you reject now.

      It’s called Repentance, boys and girls. And God isn’t playing any games.

  13. Randy Peoples says:

    How is it that the God who made these statements:

    Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday [OLD TESTAMENT TIMES], and to day [NEW TESTAMENT TIMES], and for ever [ALL TIME AFTER HIS RETURN TO THIS EARTH].
    Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
    Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

    He is the same then, now and forever, changes not and in whom there is no deviation or turning. So how is it that this God who makes these statements is the same God that I’m told by all of you that He did away with his law? Humm…

    Or here’s another one. The Sabbath Commandment has been in effect since creation:
    Gen 2:1-2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. (2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

    And it will be in force in the Millennium when Jesus gets back:
    Isa 66:22-23 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. (23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

    But according to you, it’s not in effect now. How do you square that if God never changes?

    The reality is that you can’t. You can’t, because you have no scripture to back your position. You think you do, using the words of Paul, but you don’t understand Paul’s writings to your own destruction, as Peter wrote of Paul’s words. (2 Pet 3:14-18)

    The Sabbath was commanded as a perpetual covenant forever. It does not end. It cannot end because God enjoined it on mankind eternally.

    Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
    Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
    Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
    Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

  14. Daryl Little says:

    Well Randy, I’m a Christian, not a Jew, so I’ll pass on your interpretation of things.

    I did notice, however, that you declined to answer whether or not you clip your sideburns or put a parapet onto your house.

    Or wear polyester blend clothing for that matter.

    Do you?

  15. Mark Carr says:

    Daryl:

    I will answer your question; “So I assume then, that you don’t clip your sideburns”

    Some of the Hasidic Jews interpret the Biblical command of Lev 19:27 “Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.” to not cutting the sides of their beard and letting it grow long. This is a man made minority interpretation that most reject as not the meaning of the verse.

    ” you have parapets on the roof of your house”

    If I had a flat roof that had living space on it, my local building codes would require it. Since I do not, it does not apply to me.

    “and you tithe the total 25 or 26% (or whatever it is) throughout the year.”

    Interesting that you reject something you do not even understand… Do you believe in the concept of tithing, or do you reject that too? Many Sunday preachers would disagree with you on that if you do.

    “Besides not eating shellfish and never touching your wife (even a hand on her shoulder) during her monthly period.”

    There are health reasons you obviously do not understand for obeying commands like this. It is a simple concept, disobey and there is an automatic penalty, obey and there is not. Of course, if you are living in rebellion, then you have a whole different set of problems and are sick spiritually. You can not live as a rebellious reprobate and expect to have a healthy relationship with our Savior.

    “It’s not so simple as saying the entire OT law is still in effect. Especially since Jesus fulfilled it all.”

    Why does fulfill mean throw out and abolish to you? If you fulfill your duties as a husband and father, does that mean you make your wife a divorcee and your children fatherless?

    Jesus said in John 14:15 “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” It is as simple as that.

    btw no one ever had to observe all 613 commandments of the Old Testament, they never applied to them. Some are for priests, some are for men, some are for women, some are for land owners, etc. No one is all of these things.

    Which law is it that the new covenant says is in your minds and your hearts? If you have rejected vast sections of God’s law, you have a counterfeit that has replaced it.

  16. Daryl Little says:

    So we understand each other then. I understand the New Testament to be the fulfillment of the Old and the fulfillment (completion) of the OT law as well (as the Apostles also clearly did at the Council of Jerusalem), and you, while claiming the whole law is still in effect, chose to ignore other parts of the law which you find inconvenient.

    Nowhere does Moses say that parapets depend on the slope of your roof, you’re missing most of the tithing law, you don’t avoid your wife during her period, and no doubt you don’t obey much of the rest of the law.

    And yet you want to hold others to the bits that you imagine you keep. Jesus had harsh words for folk like that.

  17. Daryl Little says:

    By the way, both Jesus (it’s not what goes into a man that makes him unclean) and Peter’s vision on the roof in Joppa (don’t call unclean what the Lord has called clean) announce the end of the OT food laws.

  18. Mark Carr says:

    I do understand that you “understand the New Testament to be the fulfillment of the Old” The problem is that neither Jesus or the Apostles held or taught that strange doctrine of rebellion.

    You are right, I do fail in much of the law because I am human and a sinner. My heart is pure though and I understand that is the target to shoot for. I am saved by grace and not living a life of rebellion against God’s laws.

    You obviously do not understand the reason for the parapets.

    btw, you need to read the whole section on Peter’s vision and not just the part you like so you can twist the meaning of the vision into something that it was not.

    Peter did not eat the unclean foods, he refused. The vision was not about eating pigs, monkeys & snakes. If you would read the whole thing, you would see that Peter gives us the reason for this vision in Acts 10:28 ” And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.”

    So you see, it was not the announcement of the end of God’s laws as you claim, it was a teaching to show that all mankind had an opportunity for salvation no matter if they were a Israelite, or a gentile.

    But you can eat your snakes and rats if you want. You will just have a shorter wait to see the grave than if you did not.

  19. Mark Carr says:

    Daryl:

    You write, “I understand the New Testament to be the fulfillment of the Old and the fulfillment (completion) of the OT law as well (as the Apostles also clearly did at the Council of Jerusalem)”

    This is another example of twisting what the Bible says.

    15:20 “But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

    15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.”

    Do you follow these commands from the counsel you refer to? Are you polluted by idols? Do you know what this means? Do you bring one into your home every December in violation of er 10:1-5? I will assume you try and avoid fornication, but do you do the same with blood? Do you read Moses every Sabbath?

    Do you know why these instructions are there? This was the “no shirt, no shoes, no service” equivalent to keep the gentiles from defiling the rest of the congregation so they could come through the door and learn the laws of God.

    This was done in a three year cycle where the Torah was read and discussed. You did not have to be perfect to come and learn. You did have to obey a few basic rules to attend and that is what is happening here.

  20. Mark Carr says:

    Daryl:

    You state, “and you, while claiming the whole law is still in effect, chose to ignore other parts of the law which you find inconvenient.”

    This is a false accusation and you are bearing false witness against me. I will pray for you.

    I do not pick and choose like many do when it comes to Scripture. I ask God for wisdom and attempt to obey every one of His commands that it is possible to obey that are found in either the Old, or the New Testament. You see, it is one harmonious book cover to cover that is a gift to us from the God who does not change.

    When people think that the Old & the New Testament are at odds, or in conflict with each other, they have been deceived by Satan into believing that it is OK to ignore the laws of God.

    Jesus did not abolish His Fathers law. In fact, he magnified it. We can not follow the “letter of the law” we have to embrace the purpose of it.

    It is not enough not to murder, we can not have hate. It is not enough to not have sex with another woman other than your wife, we can not lust.

    These are simple spiritual concepts that Jesus taught and Satan has tried to destroy.

  21. Daryl Little says:

    Hi Mark. I’m not sure why you say I was accusing you of anything, considering I was writing to Randy and not you.

    But with way, you are committed to remaining a Jew outwardly and adding circumcision (another OT law) to Christ, thereby making Christ to be of no value to you.

    I’m sorry you see things that way.

    I wasn’t trying to convince Randy per se, but to help clarify how closely he held to the Mosaic law.

    I see now that he accounts no value to Christ, but only to the keeping of the law. I had a similar discussion with a Jehovah’s Witness at my door one day.

    I pray you both find grace, mercy and salvation in Christ alone.

  22. Daryl Little says:

    But with way…???

    I can’t even tell what I meant by that…

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Justin Taylor


Justin Taylor is senior vice president and publisher for books at Crossway and blogs at Between Two Worlds. You can follow him on Twitter.

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